Why Men Stay Silent About Harassment 

Greg Calliste: [00:00:00] I can’t tell you how many… If I had a dime for every time a cop said, “Oh, she’s harassing you. You must have did her real good.” And she says to me, “You know, these cases don’t really go well for men.” 

 

Deirdre Arato: Yeah, that silence sounds like it, it, it just took such a toll. It can be deadly. The silence can be deadly. 

 

Greg Calliste: My advice to men is if you’re in these situations, to keep on pushing

 

Christina Phillips: They’re told to man up, to take it as a compliment, to laugh it off. But what happens when it’s your boss? When it’s your paycheck? When speaking up feels like career suicide? I’m Christina Phillips. Welcome to Not In The Newsletter. Thanks so much for joining me. Today, I’m here with Greg Calise from Phillips & Associate, employment discrimination attorney, and Deirdre Arrado, a psychotherapist.

 

Deirdre Arato: Thank you for having me. 

 

Greg Calliste: Good afternoon. 

 

Christina Phillips: Um, so today I wanted to just talk a little bit about, we’re always focusing on women being sexually harassed, and [00:01:00] men are sexually harassed, too. Um, it’s not as common, it’s not as frequent, but there are definite stories and things that I’ve heard about, and I just wanted to get sort of your take on it.

 

And I mean, you know, Greg, you, you’re practicing, so you may see this more often than Deirdre, but you may see it as well in your practice. Yes, 

 

Deirdre Arato: I do. 

 

Christina Phillips: So I’d love to just hear about some of the things that have happened, because it’s really, really not discussed very much. 

 

Greg Calliste: And that’s a good point. Um, it, it really isn’t discussed much.

 

And, um, I think when we think about sexual harassment, we often think about the woman being harassed in the workplace, of course, because those are the most- Mm-hmm … um, frequent incidents. Or are they actually? Because the fact of the matter is that men don’t often report sexual harassment for many- Yeah … uh, different reasons.

 

Right. So men get sexually harassed in the workplace a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, and they get s- sexually harassed outside the workplace a, a lot. And I, um, so I’m, I really appreciate being part of this, uh, discussion today because [00:02:00] I think we need to bring some awareness to it. Mm-hmm. And also let men know that, um, you are just as protected as women.

 

Um, and there are things that you can do despite the system. A- and the system is a l- another thing that I wanna discuss, or I wanna take every, take more time than everybody else 

 

Christina Phillips: here when it comes to that, but- No, feel free, because you know what? You’re the expert here, so. All 

 

Greg Calliste: right. I, I think that that part of the reason that men don’t, um, discuss sexual harassment or report sexual harassment is because the system, um, fails men in that regard.

 

They usually think about women, um, which they should, because, you know, women need to be protected and, um, men are, or can sometimes be over- overwhelming, um, w- with their sexual harass- sexually harassing behavior. Mm-hmm. Men, uh, do get sexually harassed a lot and often, and, and I have stories about it, and I guess we’ll talk about it as we go along.

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah, I’d love to hear more about that. Because, you know, to your point, I was, I was, I was just assuming that it occurred less. I wasn’t thinking about that men [00:03:00] don’t report it. Mm. You know, that d- that is sort of news to me, but- Yeah … it makes a whole lot of sense. 

 

Deirdre Arato: And men won’t even report it in therapy. It really takes some time to uncover- Mm-hmm

 

and exploring their, their emotional trauma, and finally it’ll come out when we pull back the layers that this harassment has been going on. And the fear in itself and the vulnerability, they refuse to speak about it. They won’t even address it. 

 

Christina Phillips: So, but it does take a toll. 

 

Deirdre Arato: It absolutely does, to the point where I had a client that went, went inpatient for psychiatric treatment for suicidal ideation.

 

Mm. That’s how serious it was. 

 

Christina Phillips: Wow. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Because the silence really just m- pop. What’s the word that I’m looking for? It built up. The silence built up, and it, he just couldn’t take it anymore. 

 

Christina Phillips: Can you give us sort of any of the details of his story? 

 

Deirdre Arato: Well, he, he was, he was, um, a gay male. Mm-hmm. And, um, he was working in, um, a high-profile position and [00:04:00] being sexually harassed on the daily by his supervisor, who was also gay.

 

And he just kept his mouth shut because of the fear of losing his job and the retaliation. And Even though he would, he knew it was wrong. He specifically knew it was wrong, but he decided that the consequences of confronting it was just going to be too much. And so he ended up quitting his job, and then he couldn’t find another job because of the lapse, and then it just started piling on the depression, the anxiety, the shame, the doubt, and to the point where he did try to commit suicide.

 

And when he, when he came to me, he came to me after he had been released from the inpatient psychiatric treatment, and then we explored deep down e- everything that had happened to him, and he realizes now that his options, he, he should have spoken up. Mm-hmm. 

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah, that silence sounds like it, it, it just took such a toll.

 

Deirdre Arato: It could be [00:05:00] deadly. The silence can be deadly. 

 

Christina Phillips: Eating him alive, essentially. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Exactly. 

 

Christina Phillips: You know? So… 

 

Greg Calliste: It, it’s interesting you use the word layers, because there are a lot of layers to it. But the, the, the reason that men fail to report it is because of these layers that exist, um, from, from birth, I guess, going up.

 

You’re told to be a man from, from, from when you’re growing up, and then you’re told not to complain about things. Uh, women on male sexual harassment is often looked at as not as seriously as, you know, um, women being sexually harassed. And then when you do report it, it’s often, um, oftentimes looked at as a joke.

 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, can’t report it to your boys or your friends because they The type of, the type of comments you get, um, from them just makes it, um- 

 

Christina Phillips: Worse. 

 

Greg Calliste: Yeah, it makes it worse and it makes you not want to report it. It’s, it, it becomes a fear factor thing in men- Mm-hmm … to even talk about it or mention it because they don’t wanna become the butt of jokes- Yeah, true

 

or, [00:06:00] or, or, or of harassment from their friends and everyone else. So this is important topic and I think we, we, we kinda need to cover it. 

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah. Well, I mean, the things that I’ve s- I’ve heard over the years when, you know, if a man gets sort of remarks about, you know, y- women sort of harassing them, it’s more like, “Well, you should be flattered,” or, “You should be so happy,” or you know.

 

Where it’s, it’s a very different response than when women are going through it, I think. And so, um, I’d love to hear more about your experience. And you know, Greg, if you have any cases or any details or anything that you can share with us just to sort of like shed light on real-life situations, you know, that have actually happened.

 

Greg Calliste: Sure. I, I have, uh, I mean, as an employment discrimination attorney, sexual harassment is a big thing that we do. As everyone knows, Phillips & Associates. Um, I have a client who worked in the entertainment industry who was being sexually harassed by his producer and, um, he continued to report it and report it again and over and over again, and [00:07:00] it seemed like it fell on deaf ears.

 

And then, um, he continued to report it and continued to report it. And when I say he reported it dozens of times, uh, through the union and other methods and means, no one took him seriously, and then he ended up being the one that was fired. Um, w- when he went on paternity leave, they fired him, um, the, when he’s…

 

on day one of his paternity leave and, um- Wow … it’s because… There was no other reason other than the fact that he continued to become an, he was a nuisance reporting the sexual harassment, so. 

 

Christina Phillips: But did they… What was their reasoning? Was it because he took paternity? I mean, d- is that what they said? 

 

Greg Calliste: No, they didn’t give him any reason.

 

They just said, “Okay, well, you know, you’re on…” They ended his contract. I, I mean, as someone in, um, working in these kind of or someone who used to be employed in these things, they have contracts. Mm-hmm. And then they can kinda terminate it when they feel like it for various reasons. Mm-hmm. And even though he was a great performer and doing well in his role, um, they terminated him- [00:08:00] Just off the blue and for no particular reason other than the fact that he was this nuisance.

 

So then in the case while we were doing the discovery, we realized and saw all the complaints that he had made and, um, the way that they handled it, um, the way they treated him as a nuisance. And then he went… And then n- his wife gets pregnant, and he goes out on paternity leave, and then they just terminate his contract.

 

Christina Phillips: So was that man-on-man or woman-on-man? 

 

Greg Calliste: It was a woman-on-man. Um, the producer was a female, and, uh, he’s a man and… Or was. The female producer is a female. He’s a man. And yeah, so it’s interesting because sometimes I have conversations with him now, and, um, he’s in new productions do- you know, doing new shows. And he’s just like, “I, I sw- I swear to God I’m not, I will never complain again.

 

Like, I’ll- 

 

Christina Phillips: Ugh … 

 

Greg Calliste: I keep my… You know, I’m keeping my mouth shut- Mm-hmm … keeping my ears closed. I don’t wanna hear it, see it, smell it, anything like that.” And, and, um, he, he now sees it and [00:09:00] experiences it in his new c- wherever he’s at now, and he refuses to say anything at all. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Right. Wow. Yeah. I, I’m not surprised by that.

 

Christina Phillips: I- I mean, I guess I’m not either because, you know what, you just really just don’t hear about it that often. And so you… I mean, my assumption was it, it just doesn’t happen. Mm. You know? Yeah, 

 

Deirdre Arato: no. That’s really- It happens. It happens a lot, and unfortunately, like you were saying, the system, to be a man, you don’t cry.

 

You’re a wuss, you, you know, and all those labels that go with it, right? So then it’s even l- worse for somebody who is, is gay. Mm-hmm. Mm. Right? That it’s even worse. Amazing. I bet. Yeah. And, and it’s just, it’s, it’s heartbreaking that they don’t have that support. I actually had another, uh, interesting case, uh, not a case, but a client who came to me.

 

Um, he a- he was suspended from his job because he was being harassed by another coworker because he was very feminine, right? So the other coworker would constantly make all these, like, li- little subtle [00:10:00] jokes with him- Mm … and, like, poke him and touch him, and he would tell him, “Stop. Stop doing this. Stop doing this.”

 

And he never made the complaint to the higher-up because of the, again, of fear. Mm. But it got so bad that one day that the, the man who was doing the poking and, and, um, insulting, the other guy punched him. Mm. 

 

Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Because he couldn’t take it anymore. You know? 

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah, and he had nowhere to turn because, you know, what, what is HR gonna say?

 

And that, that type of thing. 

 

Deirdre Arato: And he was suspended. 

 

Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. Um, it’s crazy. I mean, it’s just like… I, I mean, I’m so glad that we’re bringing awareness to this because, uh, it seems like men have to suffer in silence. 

 

Greg Calliste: Right. Well, just, um, dovetailing off of that statement there, men have to suffer in silence. Um, the system is a big part of it.

 

It’s a reason. Mm-hmm. So I’m familiar with the situation. Mm-hmm. It is my own, actually. I’ll, I’ll admit that. 

 

Christina Phillips: Okay. All right. 

 

Greg Calliste: Where I was [00:11:00] being stalked and harassed by someone I didn’t know. 

 

Christina Phillips: Oh. 

 

Greg Calliste: Online, actually. Oh, wow. Um, social media is how this person, uh, seemed to have found me. Mm-hmm. And it became, it came to a point where the, uh…

 

where after months of it, of enduring it, and I’m, and I mean it was consistent, it was every day- 

 

Christina Phillips: And you didn’t know this person. 

 

Greg Calliste: Not at first. Okay. I knew them online. You know, you, you’re- Yeah … you’re on social media, you have a social media page. I’m an artist, so it was… But when you’re an artist, you know, there’s people that you don’t know on your social media page.

 

It’s just… So this person found me and hooked her teeth into me, I guess it was, and started to harass. And it came to a point, it’s, uh, that I had to start reporting this, because after months of enduring it, and it was getting, it was getting bad. Like, I was getting contacted, um, my employer was getting contacted, um, my friends were getting contacted, my family was getting contacted, my- 

 

Christina Phillips: Wow[00:12:00] 

 

Greg Calliste: instructor, I’m a martial artist, my instructor was contacted. And it was like, the lies was just, it was outrageous. Like, “He’s using the martial arts that you teach him to beat me,” and stuff like that. Oh. 

 

Christina Phillips: Wow. Oh, my goodness. 

 

Greg Calliste: It was wild. 

 

Christina Phillips: Wow. 

 

Greg Calliste: Right? So my instructor starts questioning me, and it was wild. So I’m like, you know, okay.

 

After a while, um, this person showed up on my doorstep- Wow … at my house. 

 

Christina Phillips: Oh, my gosh.

 

Greg Calliste: Threatened me in front of my mother and my sister. And so, but it was just harassment. I didn’t wanna get with this person, so to speak, so this person continued with the harassment. Right? It w- it was, it was weird. I can’t even tell you how it started, I just believe she has mental illness. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Sounds like a fatal attraction.

 

Greg Calliste: Yeah. I can’t diagnose, I’m not a, I can’t diagnose her, but I could pretty much tell you that she, she was batshit crazy, pardon my language. Right? So after the threatening me in front of my mother part, I said, “Okay, now I have to do [00:13:00] something.” Mm-hmm. Right? So I go to the police about it and try to get… And they’re like, I can’t tell you how many…

 

If I had a dime for every time a cop said, “Oh, she’s harassing you. You must have did her real good.” Yeah. You know? “Oh, you must have 

 

Deirdre Arato: really, you know-” Oh my God, the boys’ club. 

 

Greg Calliste: Yeah. You walk in, and you walk in the police station, you tell them that, and they’re laughing and they’re making jokes about it. And I’m like, you know, they’re like, “You can’t handle this on your own?

 

Like, you sh- you must have-” 

 

Deirdre Arato: Wow. “

 

Greg Calliste: You must have,” pardon my language, “You must have F’d her real good,” and all this stuff. And I’m looking at them like, “No, no, like come on. Like, this is…” 

 

Deirdre Arato: Right. 

 

Greg Calliste: So after, like, tons of 911 calls and going down to, w- they, they, by the way, they wouldn’t take my report. Mm-hmm. And I’m an attorney.

 

Really? Yeah. And I’m an attorney. And- I 

 

Deirdre Arato: believe it … 

 

Greg Calliste: and I used to deal with, um, I, I was police misconduct lawyer before I was employment, and we did a lot of things in C- in Nassau County to help, um, you know, to, to, to force police to start enforcing [00:14:00] orders of protection. Usually it was about, it was, uh, towards women.

 

So I went in there knowing the law, knowing what it is, and knowing everything that they were supposed to do, and I walked in there thinking that they would help me, and they were, like, making all these jokes and not helping me. So the, the, the, the actual system itself failed me- 

 

Christina Phillips: Of course. Ah, f- 

 

Greg Calliste: yeah.

 

Figures … and sent me back home to handle, handle this on my own. So after m- after m- 

 

Christina Phillips: Which could be very dangerous. 

 

Greg Calliste: Yeah. It, it, it, it, it was dangerous because this person, um, the same day, the threat that I got in front of my mo- in front of my mother was, “I’m gonna come back and F you up,” and, and, and, you know, and she made good on that promise, ’cause later on that night came back with someone, with a male.

 

Ah. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Oh my God. 

 

Greg Calliste: And 

 

Deirdre Arato: the 

 

Greg Calliste: male had- This is a 

 

Deirdre Arato: fatal attraction … 

 

Greg Calliste: yeah, the male had, I will say the male had a weapon. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause I saw it on the camera, and we called the police, and the police came, um, and arrested… Well, [00:15:00] I wanted her arrested, but they wouldn’t arrest her, um, even though they saw the videos. I had to go beyond the police.

 

I had to go to the DA’s office on my own. Mm-hmm. I went to the DA’s office. They kept sending me back to the police, saying, “We can’t do anything unless the police arrest.” Mm-hmm. Eventually she was arrested It took a while for that to happen But the harassment didn’t stop. It kept going. Oh, it kept going?

 

Even though, yeah, even though, even though she was arrested, right? Mm-hmm. So now I get a temporary, um- 

 

Christina Phillips: Restraining order? 

 

Greg Calliste: Right. The reason that she was arrested was because I had to go to, to family court- Mm-hmm … and try to get an order of protection ’cause the, the police would not give me a criminal one, right?

 

Mm-hmm. So she gets arrested for violating the order of protection, and then comes her prosecution. And the moral, the, the, the point of this story is when I went to the, to the DA’s office now, they were fighting me for trying to prosecute her, [00:16:00] like saying, “Why are you doing this?” And- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … so after about a, several months in, um, criminal court going back and forth, DA calling me, me having to go to the DA’s office.

 

The DA called me into the DA’s office, and the DA’s a woman, female, and she says to me You know, these cases don’t really go well for men, you know. You’re a man, you’re in a position of power. She said this, and this is, this is, I’m saying this verbatim. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She said, “You’re in a position of power.

 

You’re an attorney.” Mm-hmm. Um, she’s not an attorney. Um- 

 

Christina Phillips: She’s basically like, “I don’t feel sorry for you.” 

 

Greg Calliste: Yes, and she says, you know, “These cases don’t really do good in front of juries, so we just wanna give a d- you know, we wanna just dismiss this case. Will you allow her to, you know, allow us to dismiss the case?”

 

And I said, “If I can get an o- if I can keep the order of protection.” This is after weeks of me saying- 

 

Deirdre Arato: And you’re a lawyer handling this. I can’t even imagine, like, [00:17:00] somebody who is not, doesn’t know the law. 

 

Greg Calliste: Mm-hmm. So she, after weeks she s- she says, “These cases don’t really go good for men. You know, let’s try to just give her a deal.

 

What we’re gonna try to do is just give her a g- get a deal where you get an order of protection and she, you know, maybe goes to get therapy or something like that.” Mm-hmm. So after weeks or months of her saying this and repeating this, I say, “Okay, fine.” Mm-hmm. “Fine. Forget it. Do what you gotta do,” right?

 

Mm-hmm. So she, they give her the, they, they, they ask her to go to therapy. She refuses. Mm-hmm. And then the DA comes back to me and says, “Oh, well, she won’t go, so we’re just gonna dismiss the case.” 

 

Deirdre Arato: Oh, my God. 

 

Greg Calliste: I said, I said, “What? Just like that?” She said, “Yeah. You know, I mean, you know, there’s nothing, there’s nothing to be…

 

You know, these cases aren’t really gonna go good and, you know…” 

 

Deirdre Arato: The mental toll that must have taken on you. 

 

Greg Calliste: It did. Um, it was affecting me at work, it was affecting me all over the place and- 

 

Christina Phillips: In every area of [00:18:00] your life. You don’t know, you don’t know where you’re safe, you know? Uh, uh, but how did you, how did you, how did it end up stopping?

 

Greg Calliste: It didn’t stop. 

 

Christina Phillips: It didn’t stop? It’s still happening? 

 

Greg Calliste: N- yeah. 

 

Christina Phillips: Oh, my gosh. It’s still to- oh, wow. 

 

Greg Calliste: So the moral of the story was I kind of realized that everyone thought it was a joke, like- 

 

Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

Greg Calliste: Mm-hmm … and I would never get that kind of justice. So at, at, at times, like I could, I only s- I started to… I’m an attorney that usually defends men in these situations in the workplace, and to be in this situation myself-

 

Yeah, to not get any answers It, it, it, it gave me a whole different perspective on how these things hand- get handled. But I definitely, as a result, ju- I just don’t trust the system anymore. 

 

Deirdre Arato: I, I don’t blame you. Yeah 

 

Greg Calliste: I don’t, um… ‘Cause the system will fail to protect men, and, and I know that as a matter of fact now.

 

Mm-hmm. Um, so in the workplace, it’s sort of the same kind of [00:19:00] situation. And, and thank God, you know, the, in the workplace there’s rules, regulations, and things like that. The employers kinda gotta, um… They, they have to treat men equally- Mm-hmm … um, that, as they would treat women in sexual harassment situations when m- when men report.

 

But, and that does happen, but it’s still not treated the same way in workplaces. They, you know, they- Treat you as the nuisance for being the complainer Mm-hmm. Um, and that happens a lot to women. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. 

 

Greg Calliste: So, you know, I won’t take that from them, but for men I think it’s on a different level. I think it’s this, this is sort of like an, in a mentality in this country that men just can’t be sexually harassed.

 

Or, that if you are being sexually harassed, that maybe it’s a badge of honor. Maybe, oh, look at this, like, you know, they, they’re trying to… You should be honored that, oh, that someone’s chasing you around like that. Mm-hmm. You should be honored about it. And, or they just make jokes about it until you just, until you go away.

 

Mm-hmm. 

 

Deirdre Arato: And even law enforcement isn’t even there to help you. 

 

Greg Calliste: You know? You- Law enforcement is the worst. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Yeah. 

 

Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

Greg Calliste: They’re the worst. 

 

Christina Phillips: I [00:20:00] mean, I, I’m, I mean, I mean, I’m stunned. I’m stunned that with your, you know, being an attorney and knowing all, with all the knowledge that it couldn’t, they couldn’t, you couldn’t get, um, a result to a po- you know, an outcome.

 

That’s, it’s 

 

Deirdre Arato: so bad. 

 

Greg Calliste: So, so but, but here, here’s the worst part about it. So okay, so the order of protection gets issued. We go to, um, while I’m trying to get the order of protection, right, she violates the order of protection hundreds of times, right? So I have to fill out applications- Mm-hmm … to get her a violation of order of protection, right?

 

So I do that, and it’s seven pages long of- Mm-hmm … hundreds of- Mm-hmm … violations. Coming to my house, throwing letters in my door. ‘Cause every, every morning I get a letter in my door. Even till, even to this day, I get letters stuffed in my door. 

 

Christina Phillips: God. This is insane. 

 

Greg Calliste: You know, women leaving urine in, in cups at my door, at my step.

 

Yeah. Oh my God. It’s just, like, wild, right? Yeah. And it’s, like, every day, even to today, right? So but now I’m [00:21:00] kinda like, I have the callus so I can kinda take it now, right? Mm-hmm. I kinda live with it. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Uh, you shouldn’t have to. No, you shouldn’t have to live with that. But this is the issue. You should not have to.

 

Greg Calliste: Oh, but check this out. So while I’m in court, I tell the judge about all these violations. She says to me, “Well, I gave you all that protection. What do you want me to do about it?” 

 

Deirdre Arato: Lovely. 

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah. That’s just wonderful. Yeah, but the thing, and, and here’s the thing. You know, it could escalate, you know? It, it’s a, and then if you do something- 

 

Deirdre Arato: You’ll be locked up

 

Christina Phillips: and, and so, you know, I, I feel like, I, I don’t know. I mean, hopefully somebody may be watching this podcast or something could d- do something, you know? This is a stalking- Right … harassing, no way to live. Now this 

 

Deirdre Arato: is insane. Yeah. 

 

Greg Calliste: Right. Mm-hmm. So the wild part is she plays tit for tat. So she gets arrested, so she tells the po- so she starts going to the police and saying that I was hitting her and stuff like that, I was abusing her.

 

Mm-hmm. So they came to get me, like, that. Like 

 

Deirdre Arato: that. They’ll snatch you up in a heartbeat. 

 

Greg Calliste: Yeah. I was at work, I get a call from the [00:22:00] police. “Turn yourself in.” I’m like, “What?” Oh no. I’m like, “Are you… This is…” I’m, I’m on the phone looking at the phone, I’m like, “Are, is this the same police that I call every day and-” Like, you know my name.

 

Like, I know your name. You c- you’re telling me to t- I, I thought they were calling me to say we’re gonna do something or we got her or something. Mm-hmm. She’s, they’re like, “No, turn yourself in.” I said, “Turn myself in for what?” 

 

Deirdre Arato: Wow. 

 

Greg Calliste: She’s like, sh- they, she said you hit her. And I was like, “I hit her?” Turn myself in?

 

So I go in there. All my lawyering, all my a- accolades, no matter what I did- Right, right … didn’t matter. The only thing that got them to relent from arresting me. I, you know, I had a phone full of videos and all. I showed them the, the- 

 

Deirdre Arato: Proof … 

 

Greg Calliste: everything. All the… The only thing that made them release me was that my father called- Mm-hmm

 

’cause my father had connections or whatever. He just called and was, and, and, and called folks and said, [00:23:00] “This is the thing that…” ‘Cause my father was trying to help me too. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Yeah, of course. “

 

Greg Calliste: This is the thing that I’ve been talking to you all about this whole time,” and got people to call the police and, and, and that was the only thing that got them, that made them release me.

 

So I’m in there. I came from work, so I’m like in my suit. I walk into the police station all suited up, and of course, you know, they found that funny. You know? They thought it was a joke. And I get up in there. I’m in there from, I turned myself in like 5:00, and they let me go at like 1:00 AM. Mm. I was in there- 

 

Deirdre Arato: What proof did she ha- I mean, what, what, what was she trying to- Her, her, her statement They don’t need proof.

 

It was just her statement because it ha- Just her sta- Yes. So you 

 

Christina Phillips: can just make a statement? 

 

Deirdre Arato: Yes. Yeah. Because I have so many clients that come to me that in … That’s why they won’t leave their wives. Mm-hmm. Because their s- their wives always threaten, “I’m gonna call the police and say you hit me.” Mm-hmm. And that’s all the women have to do is just call up, and the husbands are locked up.

 

It happens a 

 

Christina Phillips: lot. 

 

Greg Calliste: All it takes [00:24:00] is a statement- Mm-hmm … um, from a woman saying, “Oh, Freddie-” So no 

 

Christina Phillips: proof, no proof of bruises or broken or nothing. 

 

Deirdre Arato: No. It happens. I’ve had clients that way, yeah. 

 

Christina Phillips: Yikes. That’s scary. I mean, that’s like … But so now when you get into, you know, a workplace, it’s kind of like, of course, you

 

What man is gonna speak up? Mm-hmm. Uh, only because, I mean, the w- with the resistance that you’re up against to get help for this- Mm … it’s, it’s institutionalized. It’s systemic. Like, there’s never gonna be, you know, it’s … With that reaction from so many men- 

 

Deirdre Arato: And imagine you have the degree, you have all the education and skills, the knowledge- Mm-hmm

 

and no help. Imagine somebody who doesn’t have any of that, and they’re just left to their own devices, and it’s just too much. Yep. 

 

Christina Phillips: So how … Do you think that, you know, with your situation and what you’re going through, ho- how is it impacting you with, like, with wor- Like, if you had a man come to you who was harassed, I mean, [00:25:00] how could you help him?

 

I mean, how, what would you even- 

 

Greg Calliste: Yeah, for, for a period of time, I couldn’t even take sexual harassment cases anymore ’cause I was like, I don’t even know if people are lying. Mm-hmm. You know, I don’t know if I’m helping people that lie. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause, ’cause someone who’s just willing to just do that and lie- Mm-hmm

 

it just made me see, you know? It’s just like s- Yeah … I happened to be one of the most aggressive attorneys in my office. Mm-hmm. But I wouldn’t help sexual harassment victims ’cause it was just like I didn’t trust it. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you had to, like, go through this whole questioning of your own identity and- Mm-hmm

 

everything. My gosh. What a toll. And it’s still going on. 

 

Greg Calliste: To a degree, yeah. 

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah, that is just unbelievable. Yeah. I just, uh, like I said before, I’m stunned that somebody would cause this kind of harm. I m- but I mean, look, we hear the stories. We hear the stories of what people go through and, you know, we’ve heard so many women’s stories.

 

Right. This is just- 

 

Deirdre Arato: Yeah, and that’s important. Maybe that’s another … You should do [00:26:00] more episodes about men maybe because- 

 

Greg Calliste: No, yeah, men, I think, I think this needs to be exposed because- Yeah, mm-hmm … it … Yo, you know, one of the other things that took me by surprise during this situation is every time I would tell my f- male friends about what was going on, they would say, “Oh, you too?”

 

Deirdre Arato: Oh, really? 

 

Greg Calliste: Yeah. Oh. You know, you … The amount of The amount of men in my circle that was just like, “Oh, you’re going through that too? Oh,” you know. It was just this, it was amazing. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Greg, I got an idea. Mm. You know, heard about the Me Too movement? Well, now you should start the movement- … of the You Too movement for men.

 

The You Too movement for men. 

 

Greg Calliste: Maybe. I, at one point in time, I kinda had a p- I kinda was thinking about doing that. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Absolutely. And 

 

Greg Calliste: then I pulled back from the idea, ’cause I just, just I don’t want any parts of it. But, you know, um, just because I think it’s a bigger systemic issue that- 

 

Deirdre Arato: Yeah. W- 

 

Greg Calliste: well, that- … that, that, that’s bigger than me

 

that, well, 

 

Deirdre Arato: we have to break it down. That’s the [00:27:00] only way. 

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah, no, I mean, I’m, I’m curious to see, like, after this episode, if we hear from any of the, you know, people who’ve listened in or watched it, to see, like, look, we wanna hear your stories. We wanna know. How, how much of a problem is this? Because, uh, since it’s rarely…

 

I mean, you know, you know, if you tell your friends once and they sort of make light of it and like, “Oh, you know, whatever,” you know, you’re gonna be reluctant to, like, keep talking about it. You know? It’s gonna be people aren’t going to feel they can be forthright- Mm-hmm … if they’re not being acknowledged, if they’re not being taken seriously.

 

So, you know, to that end, I, if you’re watching, if you’re listening, please let us know if you’re a man who’s been harassed. We’d love to hear your story. Um, because, you know, this is really, uh, something that we, we have to dig down on and, and, um, I mean, I w- if for nothing else, th- that you can, like, get an end to this so that maybe, you know, the police- Yeah, 

 

Deirdre Arato: but there, I’m sure there are so many more people in your situation.

 

I mean, like, look, they wr- [00:28:00] they made a movie about it, Fatal Attraction. 

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah, that is true. 

 

Deirdre Arato: You know? 

 

Christina Phillips: That is true, yeah. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Yeah. 

 

Christina Phillips: So- Yeah, 

 

Greg Calliste: yeah … there was a, a show on Netflix

 

I forget the name now. Baby Reindeer, I think it was 

 

Deirdre Arato: Oh, yes 

 

Greg Calliste: Right, right 

 

Christina Phillips: Yes. That was, that was- Yes. Yes. I remember that- ‘Cause that was a great- Yes, yes … great show. Yeah, that was great. And she goes into the bar, and she keeps going, and then she doesn’t stop. Yeah It’s like a 

 

Greg Calliste: psychological warfare And she’s outside.

 

Oh, because this, this woman would be out. This woman sleeps outside my house in, in her car Really? Yeah, like, and talking about, like, almost every day, like, she’d be out there. I’d go out there random times She apparently doesn’t have a job No, she has a job

 

She has a job. I won’t say what it is- No … but it, the, the wild thing about it is that her job is, is what allows, is what allows her to get this, this sort of access. 

 

Christina Phillips: Oh my 

 

Deirdre Arato: God. 

 

Christina Phillips: This is just total… It’s, I, I, I mean, I believe it because you’re sitting here, but it’s like, it’s really hard to believe that the police and the judge- Mm[00:29:00] 

 

did not. And, and that’s why also, like, sometimes on this podcast I wanna be careful, ’cause I don’t want it to come across as, like, we’re m- hating men, you know? We’re not hating, we’re not hating men. We’re just trying to protect, you know, if you’re being harassed, like, what are your, what are your rights, what are your, you know, what can you do?

 

And then this really just is so, um, like, heart-wrenching. I mean, it really- Yeah, ‘

 

Deirdre Arato: cause again, that psychological toll is gonna eventually co- catch up with your physically. Mm-hmm. And it’s g- that’s when people start coming to me because they’re like, “I can’t sleep. I’m having gut issues. My hair’s falling out.”

 

All these different physical issues that they’re have ha- h- that they’re having, and they don’t know why. Mm-hmm. But this is why. The chronic stress in itself. 

 

Greg Calliste: Well, luckily for me, I sleep like a baby no matter what though. 

 

Deirdre Arato: I’m the same. 

 

Greg Calliste: I’ll sleep anywhere, any place, any time. If, if- 

 

Deirdre Arato: Well, that’s 

 

Christina Phillips: good That, that’s, yeah, you’re lucky- 

 

Greg Calliste: Yeah, but, um-

 

in that respect … just thinking about the amount of men who don’t have that support system- Right … and, and, um, l- [00:30:00] like, my job was very understanding- Mm-hmm … you know, but not everybody’s job would- Right … be that understanding. Right. You know what I mean? So- Well- … people would lose their jobs, their families, their friends, they’ll isolate.

 

And luckily I had family who supported me that would not let me do that. Right. But if I’m thinking about other men, I’m like, “Hmm, 

 

Deirdre Arato: the amount of men-” That they 

 

Greg Calliste: don’t have that 

 

Deirdre Arato: support. Mm-hmm. Like my client. 

 

Greg Calliste: They would’ve been fired. They would’ve been… 

 

Christina Phillips: I mean, it does make you lose faith in the system. It really, really does.

 

And so, um, and so where do you then turn, you know? If not for family and friends. And then if you don’t have that, then it’s like the person you- The 

 

Deirdre Arato: situation that… Yeah. 

 

Greg Calliste: Well, my advice to men, um, is if you’re in these situations, to keep on pushing. To actually… We need more men to stop saying or stop being so manly- Mm-hmm

 

and to, and to, to make complaints. To, to, to, to say something about it. Because the only reason the system allows this is [00:31:00] because men- 

 

Christina Phillips: Don’t wanna show their- Don’t speak up … vulnerability. They don’t wanna 

 

Deirdre Arato: be vulnerable. Like- But that’s not even being vulnerable. That’s the whole thing, you know? If you’re advocating for yourself- That’s true

 

you’re not being vulnerable It, it’s, it’s actually- Well, no, but 

 

Christina Phillips: is it the way they see it? It, 

 

Deirdre Arato: uh- Of course it is- You know? … because that’s the system, right? But that’s why when, you know, you come to therapy, it’s like, no, that’s, that’s y- y- you’re seeing it as a sign of vulnerability, and it literally is your, your signal to speak up and advocate for yourself.

 

Because i- if nobody else does, it, you have to be that person. 

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah. This is, um… But what, what’s going on in the mind of this woman who thinks that this is okay, that she can do this? 

 

Deirdre Arato: Well, because the system is allowing it to happen, so that’s why she thinks it’s okay. 

 

Christina Phillips: No, but, but also in the example that you gave earlier, it sound like your client also went through a very similar s- was complaining and complaining and complaining, and the woman just kept doing it and doing it and doing it, and there was never a resolution [00:32:00] until they parted ways.

 

Greg Calliste: Right. Part of the facts of that case is that after this, they investigated his sexual harassment complaint She then has to do like one on- a one-on-one with him about his performance. She, she’s his producer, you know what I mean, right? Mm-hmm. And in that meeting where she’s doing a one-on-one, there’s two other managers there now watching, and she literally says in that meeting, like, “You see, yeah, yeah, and you filed this complaint and that didn’t go anywhere.”

 

And it’s on tape. Like, he tape recorded it, thank God. Um, and, and she actually did say that. He told me she said that, and I was like, “Not with two managers there.” I didn’t believe him. I s- did the thing, the same thing that men do to me, I did to him. Like, “Y’all, come on, man. He sh- there’s no way in the world that happened.

 

Like, I’m t- there’s two managers there. There’s no way, no way, no way.” And he plays the tape for me and she says it, and I’m like, “Oh, wow, she did say it.” Mm-hmm. “Wow, that was bold.” 

 

Christina Phillips: And he, but he won. He won his case, right? 

 

Greg Calliste: Well, it was settled. 

 

Christina Phillips: Okay. 

 

Greg Calliste: But, you know, he didn’t really win because if you have a… He was in a [00:33:00] very, very good show.

 

You know, that’s all I’m gonna say. Okay, okay. And he lost that out. Like, that’s a show that could’ve taken him anywhere. Like, you know, he could’ve been- 

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah. And so his career trajectory, the same as what we’ve been talking about with women, is now altered because of this harassment situation. 

 

Greg Calliste: Right, now he’s now

 

And now instead of doing, it was a traveling tour, um, for a big network. Now instead of doing that, he’s hustling from Chicago to, to, to here, to there, to there, just doing little things, just trying to get his career back. 

 

Deirdre Arato: So what advice would you give men that are in these positions of, in their workplace that are being harassed and- 

 

Greg Calliste: Use the system.

 

Mm-hmm. Don’t … Like, the machismo stuff has to stop. Like, because it stops with us. Like, honestly. If we, if we take it seriously as a collective- Mm-hmm … then they will have no choice but to take it seriously. But if we keep saying things like, “Ooh, you must have really- [00:34:00] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … got her good,” all that stuff- Mm-hmm

 

and if we keep allowing that, then the system will just keep going in perpetuity. Baby, we need to, we need to step up and kinda speak up about it. And whoever’s listening to this, if you’ve been a victim of it and however they allow you to get contact, um, to tell your story, tell it Um, do your best, ’cause a lot of us are really depending on- Mm-hmm.

 

Deirdre Arato: Right. So if these are like- Yeah. Well, I have a 

 

Christina Phillips: son, you have a son. These are- 

 

Deirdre Arato: These are like little subtle, um, microaggressions that happen in work. Am I correct? Mm-hmm. That over time it takes its toll, and then people don’t speak up, but- Right … would you advise them to speak up at this, you know, the moment that they start feeling something is off, or- Mm

 

documenting it? 

 

Greg Calliste: For men, I would say you have… You should doc- you should document it more than… I would give that advice, um, to a man, um, with, with, I guess, with [00:35:00] stronger zeal than I would give to a woman. Mm. Like, ’cause women, they would kind- they would tend to believe you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but in men they would not, and sometimes you gotta press play on that recorder- Mm-hmm

 

and let them hear it so they could take it seriously. So, uh- 

 

Deirdre Arato: Women are more believe. 

 

Greg Calliste: Right. My advice to men would be to start documenting and recording this stuff, and also take part in the system. Stop, stop with the machismo stuff, and just keep reporting it because it, we have to normalize it so that people will start treating it normal.

 

Mm. 

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah, so that when, you know, men choose to speak up, they’re listened to. That’s, shouldn’t be too much to ask. Right. So… At harassmenthelp.org, we know that men often stay silent because they don’t think they’ll be believed. Knowledge is power. You don’t have to file a lawsuit to get informed about your rights.

 

Visit harassmenthelp.org and protect your career. What, what… I mean, you know, this is tremendously, um, uh, been [00:36:00] a very difficult situation for you, and you’ve, you know… I’m sure you must have some advice that you can offer to somebody else that might be going through it. What would you say? 

 

Greg Calliste: Yeah. Um, men need to remember in the workplace you have rights, that the rights aren’t just for women.

 

Sexual harassment can happen to men Um, and that there are policies. Most places that you work at have policies and, um, employee handbooks and manuals and statements and things like that regarding sexual harassment in the workplace, and you should take advantage of those things. You should… There are– That does apply to you as well.

 

Mm-hmm. Um, and you should take advantage of whatever the employer has- 

 

Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm … 

 

Greg Calliste: um, to protect your own rights. Um, and, and, and, and, and off- out of work, out of off-work situations, it’s good to have a support [00:37:00] system. Yeah. Like, don’t isolate yourself and go about it alone. Right. Tell people. Document what’s going on.

 

Mm-hmm. Um, go to the police if you have to. Normalize that. Mm-hmm. Um, if you are being stalked or harassed or anything like that, whether the police believe you or not doesn’t make a difference ’cause one of the things that helped me was the fact that I had a per- a paper trail. Mm-hmm. And eventually somebody had to do something.

 

Mm-hmm. Right? So- Right … it took months and You know, a, a seven-page affidavit of dates but If, if I didn’t have all that documentation, then no one would’ve helped me at all Yeah. 

 

Christina Phillips: Uh, so 

 

Greg Calliste: I mean- The little help I got was because of the documentation 

 

Christina Phillips: So never give up, and just keep pushing for, you know, s- you know, help Yeah, 

 

Greg Calliste: just don’t isolate yourself.

 

Mm-hmm. Because after a while… Hmm. I can only imagine what it [00:38:00] would’ve been like if I didn’t have my boss or didn’t have- 

 

Deirdre Arato: Your family 

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah, your family sounds like they were amazing- Yeah … in this situation. I mean- Yeah … it, that, but I can understand with how you could isolate yourself, because when you’re telling your friends and you’re not sort of, they’re not listening, or they’re not believing or something, then you’re gonna shut down.

 

Deirdre Arato: Or they’re minimizing it. It, really it’s the minimization of it all. 

 

Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. So yeah, that’s a very different perspective than what happens with women. It’s very, very different. So- 

 

Greg Calliste: Oh, and by the way, let me just tell you that this is f- the fifth year that this has been going on, right? So- Oh … yeah. So for five year- The pandemic, of course, stopped dating and all that.

 

Mm-hmm. But then this situation came on the tail of the pandemic, and I haven’t dated- Wow … since or anything like that, ’cause I can’t. Like, you know, I can’t. How do you tell someone that- Mm … you’re being stalked and stuff? You, you can’t. So, uh, don’t isolate yourself because- 

 

Deirdre Arato: That’s 

 

Greg Calliste: right … I, I thought I had 1,000 friends.

 

I thought I had 1,000 friends, [00:39:00] and now I don’t believe I have any. 

 

Deirdre Arato: Yeah. Yeah. Yikes. That’s, uh… I, I don’t, I 

 

Greg Calliste: hope that’s not- Oh, I won’t say any. Any. I’ll say, like, a few. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, uh, my boys. Shout out to my boys. You know 

 

Christina Phillips: I love you. You know I love y’all. Those are the, those are the real ones. Those are the close, those are the true, true, true ones.

 

Deirdre Arato: And, uh- Well, that’s it. But you know, you, you find out who your friends really are when you go through something traumatic, I’ll tell you that much. That is 

 

Greg Calliste: right. 

 

Deirdre Arato: So, 

 

Christina Phillips: yeah, that is for sure. Um, yeah, we’ve, we’ve, we have some stories that maybe later on down the line we can share. Uh, but, um, but this was just an incredible, um, episode, and thank you so much for sharing that.

 

It was really powerful. Yeah. 

 

Deirdre Arato: It’s amazing story, and thank you so much. 

 

Christina Phillips: And I, I do hope that you, um, get a resolution to this. And, and, and I personally am going to be racking my brain to think of what, uh, we can do to help, because this is, this should not, this should end at five years. This is, like, gone on way too long.

 

Greg Calliste: Right. Well, it’s, it’s, it’s actually fine now. Like, I think I have a handle of it, on it. Like, I’m at the tail end. [00:40:00] Mm-hmm. So I’m, I’m fine, but- Yeah. Yeah … I was able to get out of it, and I just know that there’s a lot of other people that just would not have been able to do it, so. 

 

Christina Phillips: Yeah, no, that’s crazy. 

 

Greg Calliste: Take advantage of your friends and documentation and laws and rules, regulations, whatever you got to d- to do something.

 

Just do something. Just don’t isolate yourself. Mm-hmm. 

 

Christina Phillips: Um, you know, we usually end these episodes with, uh, what wouldn’t be in the company newsletter, and I fe- I feel like what you just said a little bit ago about the fact that the policies are in the workplace to protect both men and women- I don’t think that’s spelled out.

 

Like, you know, it is- Right … it is, and that is not going to be in the company newsletter, that yes, if you’re a male, we will protect you just as much as… Even though sometimes they don’t with the women. Mm-hmm. But, you know, if it’s that company, you have the same rights. It’s, harassment is against the law, period.

 

Greg Calliste: Right, and if you feel like you’re not being heard, you should maybe speak to a lawyer. Mm-hmm. A little, maybe, maybe a lawyer could give you some advice or some guidance. Mm-hmm. [00:41:00] So don’t, just don’t isolate yourself. I’ll just keep saying that, ’cause- 

 

Deirdre Arato: Yeah, and I’m gonna say what’s not in the newsletter is, is that, you know, your silence can be deadly.

 

Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. I, absolutely. Yeah, I hear… I mean, your client was very lucky- Yes … he survived. Yes, 

 

Deirdre Arato: yes. 

 

Christina Phillips: That could’ve been a tragedy. 

 

Deirdre Arato: So, yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm. And your life is more important. 

 

Christina Phillips: 1000%, so thank you guys so much for being here, and thank you for sharing. Um- Thank you … and, um, to be continued. We’re not, we’re not, we’re gonna be following up on this.

 

And our 

 

Deirdre Arato: you too movement, Greg. Yeah, 

 

Christina Phillips: right. That’s it. The pressure is on now, Greg. You too movement. We’ll see what becomes of that. Maybe between the two of you, you can start something. Oh, I’m, I’m- I mean- … 

 

Deirdre Arato: starting it. It’s already, it’s already brewing. 

 

Christina Phillips: If she says she is, she is. 

 

Greg Calliste: Yeah. Oh, yeah, by the way, there are attorneys that help men in these situations, so- 

 

Deirdre Arato: Well, you’re one of them.

 

Greg Calliste: Yeah. 

 

Deirdre Arato: And Phillips & Associates. 

 

Greg Calliste: Yeah. But, but I’m talking about, like, outside of the workplace- Oh, okay … stalking, harassment. Okay, 

 

Deirdre Arato: yeah. What, what kind of attorney [00:42:00] is that? 

 

Greg Calliste: Um, they call themselves… Well, I don’t know what type of attorney that they would call themselves, but they call thems- there are… ‘Cause I had to look into it, um, and my job tried to help me get, um, legal help as well.

 

And I’ve read, that’s when I found out that there are law firms that just dedicate themselves to men being stalked and harassed and, and they help people with the, with the bombing on the internet and the, the, the doxing and- 

 

Deirdre Arato: Cyber stalkers … 

 

Greg Calliste: the cyber stalking. They help you with that, and they help you even get your orders of protection if you need it, and then they’ll sue if they can.

 

And so there are, there are law firms that are to help us, and our law firm, and if your situation is happening in the workplace, we’re here for you. Mm-hmm. Um, holler at me. 

 

Christina Phillips: Greg Culise, Phillips & Associates. 

 

Greg Calliste: Yes. 

 

Christina Phillips: He will help you. 

 

Greg Calliste: I will help you. 

 

Christina Phillips: Thank you. 

 

Greg Calliste: That’s for sure. 

 

Christina Phillips: If this has been useful, please rate us on [00:43:00] Spotify.

 

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