Is This Sexual Harassment or Am I Overreacting?

[00:00:00] Christina Phillips: Something feels off at work, but you tell yourself it’s probably nothing. The touch that makes your stomach drop, am I overreacting? 

 

[00:00:06] Melissa Vo: There’s a term called grooming where things start out really subtly, seemingly professionally, and then things escalate. That pattern of escalation and accumulation over time not only affects a person’s psyche, but it affects their work experience as well.

 

[00:00:20] Melissa Vo: If you’re asking yourself the question, am I overreacting? You’re not. Listen to your body. Your body knows before your head does.

 

[00:00:35] Christina Phillips: Something feels off at work, but you tell yourself it’s probably nothing. The comment that lingers too long, the touch that makes your stomach drop, the joke that everyone laughs at except you. And before you say anything, the question shows up, “Am I overreacting?” I’m Christina Phillips. Welcome to Not in the Newsletter, the things you’ll never read in the company newsletter, what’s okay, what’s not, and everything your company would [00:01:00] rather keep quiet.

 

[00:01:01] Christina Phillips: Today, we’re asking the question, is this sexual harassment or am I overreacting? And here I am back with Deirdre Arrado, psychotherapist, and Melissa Vo, employment discrimination attorney. Um, so thank you guys for joining me. Thank you. I mean, this is- Thanks 

 

[00:01:17] Melissa Vo: for having me again … 

 

[00:01:18] Christina Phillips: a major topic- Yeah … almost every woman is going to deal with, has dealt with, or might deal with in the future.

 

[00:01:25] Christina Phillips: Unfortunately, it’s kind of hard to know when we’re dealing with sexual harassment, but, um, it’s out there, it’s uncomfortable- Definitely … and we wanna break it down. And so I cannot wait to hear your thoughts on this- Mm-hmm … and, uh, what it does to you psychologically, what it does to you in the workplace- Yeah

 

[00:01:43] Christina Phillips: how it affects your career, um, and what to do about it. Yeah. So hopefully we’ll have some answers. 

 

[00:01:50] Melissa Vo: Yeah, definitely. It’s, it’s a big, big topic and it’s really important because sometimes people forget that, you know, gender discrimination, if, if in the workplace you’re being [00:02:00] treated differently, and this is including being sexually harassed based on your gender, it’s illegal 

 

[00:02:06] Christina Phillips: Yes, I, uh, I mean, we all know it’s illegal, but why does it keep, why does it still happen, you know?

 

[00:02:12] Melissa Vo: It’s, so I, I definitely wanna talk about how subtle that sexual harassment can be today. Mm-hmm. Uh, a lot of times women, and people in general, feel like they are overreacting. 

 

[00:02:23] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:02:23] Melissa Vo: But they’re not. They’re not. Right. 

 

[00:02:26] Christina Phillips: You’re seeing this in your practice where- Yes … they weren’t sure, then they came to you, and they were, and you were like, “Absolutely not.”

 

[00:02:33] Melissa Vo: Yeah. This is- Yeah. And there are so many examples of, of subtleties, right? Mm-hmm. Um, there’s a term called grooming where things start out really subtly, really, you know, uh, seemingly professionally, and then things escalate. Mm-hmm. And so that pattern of escalation and accumulation over time not only affects a person’s psyche, but it affects their, you know, their work experience as well.

 

[00:02:55] Melissa Vo: Of course. Yeah. 

 

[00:02:56] Christina Phillips: I mean, how can you work when you’re constantly, you know, maybe being [00:03:00] watched- Right … or are you having to monitor comments and- Right … and then you’re thinking, “Is it something that I did?” Yeah. “Was I too friendly?” And we talked about some of this and, um, on a different episode- Right … about, you know, was it, was it my fault?

 

[00:03:14] Christina Phillips: And, um, you know, a lot of times it’s not. A lot of times it’s not your imagination, and- 

 

[00:03:19] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:03:20] Christina Phillips: you know, it’s actually happening. 

 

[00:03:21] Melissa Vo: Right. Yeah. It’s really that blurring the line between prof- a professional relationship that turns personal, that turns into what is blatantly sexual harassment, right? Right. We wanna differentiate between what’s blatant and what’s, what’s subtle.

 

[00:03:36] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. Something that you don’t notice ahead of time. But- Sure … giving people and giving women those early signs helps them empower themselves earlier. 

 

[00:03:43] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:03:44] Melissa Vo: Right? And I think at the end of the day, if you’re asking yourself the question, “Am I overreacting?” 

 

[00:03:48] Christina Phillips: You’re not. Right, right. You’re not. 

 

[00:03:49] Melissa Vo: Right, right.

 

[00:03:50] Melissa Vo: Listen to your body. Mm-hmm. Right? Because your body, again, we, we talked about this before, too- Mm-hmm … your body knows before your head does. 

 

[00:03:56] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:03:57] Melissa Vo: You know, connect the dots there. 

 

[00:03:58] Christina Phillips: Right, right, right. And I [00:04:00] mean, and, and, and from your perspective, you know, I guess, you know, how are you counseling people that are dealing with this?

 

[00:04:05] Christina Phillips: It’s just undermining confidence. 

 

[00:04:07] Deirdre Arato: So people are coming to me and questioning themselves. Mm-hmm. And they’re seeking external validation because what they’re feeling and thinking, they’re internalizing it. Mm-hmm. It’s this constant hypervig- vigilance of replaying the events over and over and over again.

 

[00:04:26] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. And they’re, actually, what’s happening, the brain is trying to find certainty in something that is uncertain. 

 

[00:04:33] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:04:33] Deirdre Arato: So automatically- I tell people automatically you’re going to internalize it and think it’s your fault. 

 

[00:04:41] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:04:42] Deirdre Arato: But if you’re doing that, just like you said, Melissa- Yeah … that is the sign to say something is not right and to trust yourself.

 

[00:04:51] Deirdre Arato: Right, 

 

[00:04:51] Christina Phillips: right. 

 

[00:04:51] Deirdre Arato: And it does happen over time. It is, it’s actually what we call in therapy cumulative trauma. 

 

[00:04:57] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Right. 

 

[00:04:58] Deirdre Arato: Because of all those little subtle [00:05:00] events that are happening- Mm-hmm … that will slowly diminish- Mm-hmm … the woman’s confidence. 

 

[00:05:05] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:05:05] Deirdre Arato: So when they come to me at this point, they’re trying, “Is it me?

 

[00:05:09] Deirdre Arato: Am I crazy?” 

 

[00:05:10] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:05:11] Deirdre Arato: Uh, you know, they’re constantly replaying those, second-guessing. 

 

[00:05:14] Christina Phillips: I mean, how can you not? You know, you’re just trying to do your job, and now you’re… And if you’re in a relationship or whatever, I mean, you know, these are things that shouldn’t be coming into the workplace. Yeah. So. 

 

[00:05:26] Melissa Vo: Right.

 

[00:05:27] Christina Phillips: Right? It- 

 

[00:05:27] Melissa Vo: Yeah, and I, I see this not only in my clients, but also my friends. Mm-hmm. You know? Seeing this, like, a real-life experience, you know, watching this happen, where you have very smart, very capable women, people who just look at, you know, look at the situation one day and think, “How did I get here?”

 

[00:05:44] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. Right? And I know of stories as well, and what I find is that, you know, they start to question, “How is this happening?” Yeah. “What did I do?” Yeah. But then they’re, they don’t wanna take it to the next step. 

 

[00:05:57] Deirdre Arato: Right. 

 

[00:05:57] Christina Phillips: They don’t wanna talk about it. Extremely [00:06:00] uncomfortable. A lot of times they just wanna leave the job- Mm-hmm

 

[00:06:02] Christina Phillips: and try to get a different job. Yeah. But, I mean, it’s a g- 

 

[00:06:05] Deirdre Arato: Right, that’s avoidance behavior. 

 

[00:06:07] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:06:07] Deirdre Arato: Right? You know, it’s easier to just leave the situation- Yeah … than confront it, because you don’t know what the consequence is- Right … that you’re facing. So it’s much easier for people to just choose the certainty they know.

 

[00:06:20] Christina Phillips: Right, to just- Yeah … leave. Yes. But that’s also, I mean, that’s also creating such an internal fear. 

 

[00:06:25] Deirdre Arato: Absolutely. It, absolutely. Yeah. It completely is diminishing your authenticity. 

 

[00:06:31] Christina Phillips: Right. What are some of the subtle signs 

 

[00:06:34] Melissa Vo: to look out for? So in the cases that I’ve seen and circumstances that I’ve seen- Um, I’ll say again that it starts off as, as, uh, a professional relationship.

 

[00:06:44] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. Right? So it’s, over the course of time, it’s eroding boundaries. Mm-hmm. So at the very beginning it could be something like asking for a favor or saying, you know, “If you do, you know, if you like, you know, come to this event with me,” or, you know, and then, you know, “We’ll, we’ll talk about a raise,” you know, things [00:07:00] like that.

 

[00:07:00] Christina Phillips: Oh. 

 

[00:07:00] Melissa Vo: Or even, um, asking someone to, um, to go to an event outside of work with them. That’s kind of actually a little bit further, uh, down the line. I would say it’s, it’s really being friendly. The first thing is really you would have no idea that this person is just, just, just, um, uh, trying to develop a, a, a genuine relationship with you.

 

[00:07:22] Melissa Vo: That’s what it appears as for at first. And then over time, you know, there will be things that test your boundaries in terms of, you know, maybe a light touching, a compliment. That’s usually how it starts. Oh, okay. You know, you know, “You look great today,” or, but, you know, that could be innocuous by itself.

 

[00:07:38] Melissa Vo: These little instances by themselves are often very innocent. Mm-hmm. But the accumulation and the, the escalation over time is what builds a case and what also deteriorates someone’s, you know, someone’s boundaries, right? 

 

[00:07:51] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:07:51] Melissa Vo: Um, so, you know, say, you know, one person says once that you look great, that’s not gonna be a case in and of itself likely, but it’s, it’s [00:08:00] comments over time being like, “You look great in that blouse.

 

[00:08:02] Melissa Vo: You should wear that lipstick color.” Oh, okay. A little bit more provocative over time, right? Mm-hmm. That escalates to, to touching, maybe some, a pat here and there, you know, a, a, a hand that lingers a little bit too long, right? 

 

[00:08:14] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:08:14] Melissa Vo: Right. Um, things get a little bit more physical in terms of comments, and then it turns into, it, it turns into kind of a, a codependent relationship, too, right?

 

[00:08:23] Melissa Vo: If they’re, if anyone’s asking you for favors, saying, “Oh, you owe me,” or, “You’ll get me next time,” things like that. Um, and then you find yourself in a situation where you feel like a lot of personal information has been shared maybe, and you feel like you’re indebted to this person who’s likely someone who has power over you in that, that situation.

 

[00:08:42] Melissa Vo: That’s where things get sticky. 

 

[00:08:44] Christina Phillips: Okay. Very interesting. We’re gonna break that down because I’m very curious to know if, you know, if it’s a coworker, if it’s your boss, or… So we’re gonna, we’re gonna get into it, and, uh, I think we have a couple of stories to share, and so hopefully we can, you know, get your opinions on it.[00:09:00] 

 

[00:09:01] Christina Phillips: This first story comes from a young woman early in her career. A coworker keeps hovering, standing too close, touching her shoulder when he talks. No single moment she can point to, nothing explosive. When she brings it up, her supervisor shrugs it off as harmless. She starts wondering if she’s the problem.

 

[00:09:18] Christina Phillips: And instead of tell- feeling safer at work, she feels smaller. So, 

 

[00:09:23] Deirdre Arato: okay, so this is something that happens very frequently when people come to therapy. 

 

[00:09:27] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:09:28] Deirdre Arato: They’re questioning, “Maybe I’m making a big deal out of it,” right? 

 

[00:09:34] Christina Phillips: Right. They’re minimizing- ‘Cause it’s just sort of like, “Oh, you know, you look nice,” or- Right

 

[00:09:36] Christina Phillips: it’s not like, it’s not like- Things are small … “Oh, you wanna go out to dinner?” You know? 

 

[00:09:39] Deirdre Arato: Right. You see, that little hovering is already making you feel uncomfortable. 

 

[00:09:43] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:09:44] Deirdre Arato: Right? So right from there- Um, that’s the alarm going off. Yep. Right? Mm-hmm. So sometimes people are waiting for a big event to happen.

 

[00:09:52] Deirdre Arato: Like for example, saying like blatantly coming out and making some s- type of- Right, right … sexual comment- Right. Right … that’s [00:10:00] inappropriate. Yeah. Right? But because it’s, um, so minimal, that’s what leaves the woman questioning her own reality. 

 

[00:10:08] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s understandable. I, I would assume, you know, w- okay, you’re not asked out on a date, you’re not s- sex is never mentioned.

 

[00:10:18] Christina Phillips: Right. So how, how do you know- 

 

[00:10:20] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:10:21] Christina Phillips: what’s crossing the line? 

 

[00:10:22] Melissa Vo: Right. I feel like if you’ve gotten to that point where you’re changing your own behavior as well as, you know, your body physically- Yes … reacting to it, that’s the point where you can, you know, either seek legal advice or go to a therapist and talk about it.

 

[00:10:35] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. People often don’t do that because, again, they do wait for something big to happen- Mm-hmm … because they wanna feel validated. They feel like maybe it’s, they’re, they’re imagining things. Right. But hopefully- 

 

[00:10:45] Christina Phillips: I’m crazy or something. 

 

[00:10:45] Melissa Vo: Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully, like, platforms like this and just educating women and men to really recognize early on the signs of grooming and potential escalating sexual harassment helps them m- m- you know, confirm and maintain those boundaries earlier on [00:11:00] so that the s- situations don’t escalate.

 

[00:11:01] Melissa Vo: So- 

 

[00:11:02] Deirdre Arato: I wanna highlight on what, what you just said, Melissa- Yeah … of the change of behavior. I’m curious about that, too. And that is extremely important. Mm-hmm. If you notice that you are changing your behavior- Yeah … that is a clear sign of shrinking. 

 

[00:11:18] Christina Phillips: Right. Right. Because, I mean, that could look like changing your outfit.

 

[00:11:22] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. Not wearing clothes that might be too revealing. Yeah. Or not wearing makeup or changing your hair or, or- 

 

[00:11:29] Deirdre Arato: Not giving too much eye contact. 

 

[00:11:31] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:11:32] Deirdre Arato: Maybe not being as welcoming. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? So, you know, maybe you s- some people just have, like, a very kind, welcoming personality- Yeah … but now they’re saying, “Well, I shouldn’t do that.

 

[00:11:43] Deirdre Arato: Maybe I should just, like, you know-” Right. “… tone it down a 

 

[00:11:45] Christina Phillips: little 

 

[00:11:46] Deirdre Arato: bit.” Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:11:46] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:11:46] Deirdre Arato: And over time, that really is, um, making people very stressed out, anxious, second-guessing as well. Oh, that’s exactly. 

 

[00:11:55] Christina Phillips: Right? For sure. Yeah. I can imagine. Yeah. I mean, are, is that the type of change of behavior that [00:12:00] you’re sort of alluding to?

 

[00:12:01] Melissa Vo: Yeah. So that’s, you know, that can be an indication of a hostile work environment, right? Mm-hmm. You’re changing yourself so much because of your surroundings. Mm-hmm. Right? And a lot of times you’re blaming yourself, but it’s not your fault. Right. Right. It’s not your fault, and you’re not overreacting. Right.

 

[00:12:16] Melissa Vo: Right? 

 

[00:12:17] Christina Phillips: But the cr- the thing is, in this story- 

 

[00:12:19] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:12:19] Christina Phillips: you know, she’s saying it’s a coworker. 

 

[00:12:21] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:12:21] Christina Phillips: And then she’s going to her supervisor- Mm-hmm … and they’re saying, “Oh, it’s no big deal”- 

 

[00:12:26] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:12:26] Christina Phillips: essentially. So- And 

 

[00:12:27] Deirdre Arato: that’s gonna make you feel worse. 

 

[00:12:28] Melissa Vo: Exactly. 

 

[00:12:29] Christina Phillips: Yeah. I mean, and so- You know, if it’s a coworker, are they…

 

[00:12:34] Christina Phillips: What are, what are they supposed to do for you if you’re… If it’s me in that situation, and I love my job, but I don’t, you know, I don’t wanna quit. I don’t wanna- Yeah. So what- And you certainly don’t wanna cause any waves. Yeah, no. So- 

 

[00:12:45] Melissa Vo: A couple of issues here actually to unpack. From a legal standpoint, sometimes just because someone is your peer or your coworker doesn’t necessarily matter in terms of liability.

 

[00:12:56] Melissa Vo: So under the law, if it’s a supervisor [00:13:00] that’s harassing you, oftentimes that carries more weight- Mm … than if it’s just a coworker. However, that doesn’t have to be a title situation. If it’s a coworker with the same title, but this coworker happens to manage what you do, has input in your daily schedule, or, um, the feedback in your work, um, and it’s someone that kind of manages you, then y- they could be your manager under the law, right?

 

[00:13:22] Melissa Vo: Yeah. Um, and then they also have a responsibility towards you. Um, now your actual supervisor in this situation where if someone’s reporting to their supervisor, a lot of times that supervisor also has the responsibility to report it and escalate it to HR. ‘Cause if that’s not happening, you may have a case in, you know, in of itself, um, depending on the state.

 

[00:13:41] Christina Phillips: Sure. Okay. Wow. Interesting. Yeah. And, um, any other sort of examples of changing your behavior that you might wanna point out that we didn’t discuss? 

 

[00:13:50] Melissa Vo: I’m trying to think of, of additional examples. Pr- like, you may be removing yourself from certain work opportunities because you want to avoid a certain person on a certain team.

 

[00:13:58] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:13:58] Melissa Vo: And then that [00:14:00] limits not only, you know… That, that limits your career trajectory as well as, you know, making you feel smaller too. Right. 

 

[00:14:06] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. I, and I wanna point out that if you… The change of behavior might look like this, because this is what I see. Mm. They’re constantly asking other people, “What do you think?”

 

[00:14:16] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Oh, good point. 

 

[00:14:17] Deirdre Arato: Right? So they’re talking to friends. They could be talking to another coworker. 

 

[00:14:22] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:14:22] Deirdre Arato: You know, constantly seeking that external validation of, “What do you think?” 

 

[00:14:27] Christina Phillips: If I said, “Do you see this as a problem?” 

 

[00:14:29] Deirdre Arato: Is this… Yes. 

 

[00:14:30] Christina Phillips: Right. “Has anybody said anything like that to you?” Right. Yeah. Right. And- Yes

 

[00:14:35] Christina Phillips: you know, but then when is it innocent? So I guess it’s what you said earlier is it’s like, okay, a comment here- Mm-hmm … or there- Mm-hmm … but not an escalation. Is that correct in my understanding? That, you know, uh, it’s like, okay, if let’s just say you’re… I’m the male, you’re the female, and I say, “Oh, Melissa, I love your [00:15:00] dress.”

 

[00:15:00] Christina Phillips: Mm. But then you don’t hear anything from me for a month. I don’t comment on your appearance or anything. 

 

[00:15:06] Deirdre Arato: No. 

 

[00:15:07] Christina Phillips: And then I, you know, two months later I say, “Wow, I love your hair.” So what’s the escalation? Is it a time period? 

 

[00:15:15] Melissa Vo: Is it the- It really, I think it just really depends. Mm. It really depends on the person.

 

[00:15:20] Melissa Vo: It, it depends on the nature of, it, it, the nature of the escalation, but also the nature of how you’re feeling. Mm. If you feel like you’re getting more uncomfortable over time, there’s probably a reason for that. 

 

[00:15:32] Christina Phillips: Okay. 

 

[00:15:32] Melissa Vo: Right? On its face, just those two comments, like I, I don’t know if I would personally, you know, find myself uncomfortable.

 

[00:15:39] Melissa Vo: If you find yourself uncomfortable, you can voice it. 

 

[00:15:41] Christina Phillips: Okay. 

 

[00:15:42] Melissa Vo: Right? Okay. It’s really about establishing whatever your boundaries are. 

 

[00:15:45] Deirdre Arato: And if you’re spending s- that much time- 

 

[00:15:48] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm … 

 

[00:15:50] Deirdre Arato: thi- rethinking and replaying everything- Yeah … over in your head, like that’s leading to burnout in itself. Exactly. Right? Of course.

 

[00:15:57] Deirdre Arato: Because now y- you have to just, not only are you [00:16:00] managing your job duties, but now you’re trying to regulate your own emotions. 

 

[00:16:04] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:16:05] Deirdre Arato: And so that’s going to, again, lead to that chronic stress, that hypervigilance. 

 

[00:16:09] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Not to mention what, you know, okay, trying to decide what am I wearing to work today?

 

[00:16:14] Christina Phillips: Right. What is gonna garner me too much attention that I, it’s unwanted, unsolicited. Mm-hmm. I don’t want it. Um, so just, you know, it really does erode- 

 

[00:16:24] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:16:24] Christina Phillips: over time. 

 

[00:16:25] Melissa Vo: Yeah. And this is also not to say that you, you can’t establish friendships and stuff with your coworkers. You have to, I mean, I think that that’s, that’s one of the reasons I love my job so much too- Mm

 

[00:16:33] Melissa Vo: is that I love, I love the friendships that I have- Mm-hmm … with people around me. It’s really up to you and the nature of those friendships, right? It is in a sense up to you to establish those boundaries, what makes you comfortable. If you’re feeling uncomfortable, you’re allowed 

 

[00:16:45] Deirdre Arato: to feel that way. Right.

 

[00:16:46] Deirdre Arato: Right. Yeah. Maybe one of the questions a, a woman can ask herself is, you know, what are you avoiding? 

 

[00:16:51] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:16:51] Deirdre Arato: Right? Maybe you, you don’t wanna go to the group, what is it, the cafeteria- Yeah … or something. Yeah. Or the wardrobe room. Or the 

 

[00:16:58] Christina Phillips: after hour hotel party. 

 

[00:16:59] Deirdre Arato: [00:17:00] Right. Maybe you’re avoiding. Mm. So that behavior can show up as avoidance as well.

 

[00:17:04] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm, the Friday 

 

[00:17:05] Deirdre Arato: after pizza party. So pay attention- Yeah … to the, all those little, little subtle behaviors that you’re shifting yourself. Right. Right. Right. 

 

[00:17:13] Christina Phillips: Yeah. No, the, the, the discomfort 

 

[00:17:15] Deirdre Arato: is like a, a huge 

 

[00:17:17] Christina Phillips: red flag 

 

[00:17:19] Melissa Vo: Not sure if what’s happening to you is actually harassment? You’re not alone. That question gets asked every day at harassmenthelp.org.

 

[00:17:26] Melissa Vo: If something feels off, it’s worth talking about. The team there can walk you through what’s normal, what’s not, and what options may be available. Visit harassmenthelp.org to take the first step. 

 

[00:17:37] Christina Phillips: The next story comes from a researcher at a major university. She’s collaborating with someone senior to her, someone who controls access to publications and opportunities.

 

[00:17:47] Christina Phillips: At first, it’s text, then comments, then touching. When she tries to set boundaries, the opportunities disappear. She’s afraid to report it, not because she doesn’t know it’s wrong, but because she knows [00:18:00] how small her field is, and she’s terrified of being blacklisted. 

 

[00:18:04] Melissa Vo: Yeah, this is a classic case of grooming.

 

[00:18:07] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. Grooming by somebody who has power over your situation, right? You know, I mentioned before that you don’t have to have a supervisory title, right? This is someone who has, um… who is a, is, um, the middle person between you and your success. So this person naturally has, you know, power in that situation.

 

[00:18:25] Melissa Vo: Mm. So that dynamic creates an opportunity for this person to not only erode your boundaries, to take advantage of that and really take advantage of the situation and of you. Yeah. 

 

[00:18:35] Christina Phillips: Yeah. But the thing that is, I find so interesting in this situation, and I’ve heard this over and over, is the being blacklisted.

 

[00:18:43] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:18:43] Christina Phillips: Because, you know, if you say anything, and the industry is so tiny- Yeah … now word’s gonna get out. “Hey, you’re a problem. Hey, you’re this. Hey, you’re that. Don’t hire her- 

 

[00:18:54] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:18:54] Christina Phillips: because she caused this problem.” 

 

[00:18:56] Melissa Vo: Right. 

 

[00:18:56] Christina Phillips: I, I, I mean, that’s almost, 

 

[00:18:59] Melissa Vo: uh, uh, [00:19:00] what… How do you work around that to make these behaviors stop?

 

[00:19:03] Melissa Vo: Yeah. This person, I mean, whoever is in control, in power, knows that you already feel powerless. They wanna make you feel smaller. Mm-hmm. Right? They wanna make you feel like you have no resources, no support. I think in a situation like that, look around you for support. Someone will, someone is going to be there to g- be able to give you strength.

 

[00:19:21] Melissa Vo: Your therapist, an attorney. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Right? Someone to help you just reclaim that strength for yourself so that you have that bravery to, to move forward and report. 

 

[00:19:31] Christina Phillips: Mm, right. 

 

[00:19:32] Melissa Vo: You’re put in a very, very powerless situation, so of course it’s very difficult to even comprehend that you have options. But knowing you have options, knowing you have choices, and you can make those choices and empower yourself, that’s what I hope that, you know, we, we can do.

 

[00:19:47] Melissa Vo: Sure. 

 

[00:19:47] Christina Phillips: Yeah, and- 

 

[00:19:48] Deirdre Arato: I do, to bring up what I’m adding from a therapeutic standpoint, what often happens is, is women in this type of, in these types of situation- Mm-hmm … they’ve already kept silent for so [00:20:00] long because they weighed the risks. They don’t wanna risk their careers. 

 

[00:20:04] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:20:04] Deirdre Arato: So by the time they’re coming to me, they’re already in such a heavy load of stress- Mm-hmm

 

[00:20:10] Deirdre Arato: where, “I don’t know, I don’t know what’s wrong with me.” Mm-hmm. “I can’t sleep. My hair’s falling out.” Oh, so sometimes they don’t put 

 

[00:20:15] Christina Phillips: it together 

 

[00:20:16] Deirdre Arato: right away? Exactly. That’s- Oh … that’s it. Right? So they’re already coming to me where sleepless nights, insomnia. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Their hair’s falling out from the stress.

 

[00:20:25] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. They’re having gut issues. Uh, it’s just this constant, constant ruminating of anxiety that they’re feeling, that their nervous system is so completely disre- dysregulated, and they don’t know why. 

 

[00:20:38] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:20:38] Deirdre Arato: Well, when we start un- you know, uncovering things, like y- she’s been avoiding and suppressing her feelings to manage and maintain her career- Right

 

[00:20:49] Deirdre Arato: and over time, that stress is destroying her. 

 

[00:20:52] Melissa Vo: Right. Right. And it’s also that fear of the unknown. Like, “If I report this- Mm-hmm … then it might ruin my entire career.” That blacklisting, you know, [00:21:00] if someone reports sexual harassment or discrimination and they, there are career consequences because of that, that is also illegal.

 

[00:21:06] Melissa Vo: That’s retaliation under the law, right? And so I think a lot of people don’t, don’t realize that, and so they, they stop themselves short. Oh. 

 

[00:21:13] Christina Phillips: But the- Yeah … but the tricky thing about the blacklisting- Yeah … is if you leave your job- Mm-hmm … and then you go to a different job, even if it’s a type of thing where you’re, you know, in d- in independent, like let’s say in the fashion industry or something.

 

[00:21:26] Christina Phillips: Yeah. I’ve heard of stories where stuff goes on- Mm-hmm … and people don’t wanna cause waves because even though it’s not a company, per se, then they just don’t wanna get a reputation. 

 

[00:21:38] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:21:38] Christina Phillips: Of course. And so, you know, how do you fight back that retaliation in a, in a whole industry ? 

 

[00:21:43] Melissa Vo: Yeah. So, um, I’ll just give you an example from cases that I’ve seen where I’ve had, you know, I have had clients who are applying to new jobs, and they ask their old jobs for a reference, and that job gives them a bad reference because they’ve complained in the past.

 

[00:21:58] Christina Phillips: Of course. 

 

[00:21:58] Melissa Vo: That’s, that’s additional [00:22:00] retaliation. That’s, you know, that i- is, is really impactful towards your career, and so it impacts the wage damages in your case. Yeah. There are resources for you, and there are, you know, there are ways to combat under the law, right? Okay. And on top of just the legal case itself and a potential settlement, speaking up for yourself in, in, a, an industry like that paves the way for other people behind you to be able to take advantage of their rights, too, right?

 

[00:22:25] Deirdre Arato: Yeah, but sometimes, I, I can say most the… I’m not even gonna say sometimes. Yeah. I’m gonna say most of the times- The risk is definitely too much. It’s no way. And they’d rather not deal with it, and they’d rather not speak up- Yeah … because they don’t know- Mm-hmm … what to do. 

 

[00:22:43] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:22:43] Deirdre Arato: They don’t know the process, how long is this gonna take, who’s gonna help me.

 

[00:22:47] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:22:48] Deirdre Arato: So it’s just easier to settle with the, what you know rather than the unknown. 

 

[00:22:54] Christina Phillips: Yeah. And that’s the sad part. It is very sad. Right? It is. But hopefully, you know, as [00:23:00] more cases come about and, and people learn what’s not okay, I mean, I’m talking from, you know, the employer’s perspective. Mm-hmm. If there’s, you know, if maybe they get sued, or they have people quit, or- Right

 

[00:23:12] Christina Phillips: you know, they don’t wanna lose great workers. 

 

[00:23:15] Melissa Vo: Right. 

 

[00:23:16] Christina Phillips: So- 

 

[00:23:16] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:23:17] Christina Phillips: you know, maybe they’ll be more proactive. Exactly. 

 

[00:23:19] Melissa Vo: It’s like, it’s the individual will al- will, will deter themselves from doing something because they have something to lose, right? Yeah. But if employers know they also have something to lose, maybe, you know, that’s how progress happens.

 

[00:23:30] Christina Phillips: Yeah. I mean, because I know of a situation where there was an incredible person who was getting amazing reviews, and she was doing really, really well, but it became too much. Company didn’t wanna lose her. Yeah. But she just felt like she couldn’t stay working in this environment. Yeah. So, you know, if that happens a little bit more over time- Mm-hmm Then hopefully it’ll become second nature where it’s like, “Okay, this is not tolerated.”

 

[00:23:54] Melissa Vo: Right. 

 

[00:23:54] Christina Phillips: Um, but if people don’t report- 

 

[00:23:56] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:23:57] Christina Phillips: and they don’t take matters into their own hands- 

 

[00:23:59] Melissa Vo: Nothing will ever change … 

 

[00:23:59] Christina Phillips: [00:24:00] nothing’s going to change. Exactly. So your work’s, both of your work is so important so we can empower women to speak up. Absolutely. I mean, it’s not just women. I mean, it could be any sort of, uh, somebody who doesn’t identify or, you know- 

 

[00:24:12] Deirdre Arato: But I think it’s harder for women.

 

[00:24:14] Deirdre Arato: In 

 

[00:24:14] Christina Phillips: general. I 

 

[00:24:14] Deirdre Arato: mean, it’s, 

 

[00:24:15] Christina Phillips: it’s- I 

 

[00:24:15] Deirdre Arato: have, I- I think the statistics are out there … I really do think that it’s hard- harder for women. We’re constantly in, trying to prove ourselves- Yeah … in every way. Not just the, it, not just with our, our own relationships, but in the workplace specifically, we are constantly trying to prove ourselves.

 

[00:24:32] Deirdre Arato: And to have a situation like this, it’s absolutely devastating to one’s self-confidence. Mm-hmm. Because you’ve worked your whole life and sacrificed for your career, your education. You’ve given so much of yourself. 

 

[00:24:45] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:24:45] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. And then to have this happen of somebody in a position of power- 

 

[00:24:49] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm … 

 

[00:24:50] Deirdre Arato: and to make you feel so insignificant and questioning your own- And insecure

 

[00:24:54] Deirdre Arato: worth and value- Yeah, yeah … it is disgusting. 

 

[00:24:58] Christina Phillips: I, I have to agree. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s [00:25:00] like, enough is enough already. Like- Yeah. 

 

[00:25:02] Deirdre Arato: It’s awful. 

 

[00:25:02] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:25:03] Deirdre Arato: And that’s, like I never tell people what to do. 

 

[00:25:06] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:25:07] Deirdre Arato: But it’s just this conversation that I have with women to say, “Let’s look at your options.” Mm-hmm. Yes. And you have to decide what’s best for you in the long run.

 

[00:25:16] Deirdre Arato: Right. 

 

[00:25:16] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. That’s exactly what I do as a legal 

 

[00:25:18] Melissa Vo: advisor, right? We’re not the ones driving the ship here. 

 

[00:25:20] Deirdre Arato: Right. Right? 

 

[00:25:21] Melissa Vo: We’re here to make sure that our clients make the best decisions for themselves in their own shoes, right? But it’s, it’s really showing them that they have choices. There are different routes here, and there are different ways that you can find support, right?

 

[00:25:33] Melissa Vo: Yes. It’s just sad, though, that they have to weigh these. 

 

[00:25:36] Christina Phillips: You know, like- Of course. Okay, is it- On top, on 

 

[00:25:38] Deirdre Arato: top of managing everything 

 

[00:25:39] Christina Phillips: else. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then potentially having to look for a new job when you’re, you know- Mm-hmm … just trying to just do your best- Yep … and go to work. Or, or in this case, you know, it was a colleague, and, uh, I think it was a university setting.

 

[00:25:52] Christina Phillips: Yes. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, it’s, um… Let’s look at this scenario. A senior colleague always greets you with a hug, [00:26:00] even in front of others. The hug lingers just a little too long. When you pull away or offer a handshake, instead he laughs and says, “Don’t be so uptight.” How do you handle that? I will say that I 

 

[00:26:11] Melissa Vo: am a hugger, and so you have to be careful with who you’re hugging.

 

[00:26:15] Melissa Vo: Yeah, because if it’s me- You know? … I’m not a hugger. And I’m gonna be like, “Hands off. I don’t care, female, male, don’t touch me.” Yeah. But that’s perfect. Handle it like that. You know, hands off, I’m not a hugger. 

 

[00:26:24] Christina Phillips: Yeah, but I probably wouldn’t if it was- Oh … somebody I was grieving. With a boss. You know what I mean?

 

[00:26:27] Melissa Vo: Yeah. Well, I would, I wouldn’t wanna offend. You just, yeah, I mean, you could deliver it and say, “Sorry, I’m not a hugger.” You know, that establishes you and your boundary, you know. It’s something that really just encapsulates and communicates what you want in a situation. Because this could’ve been innocent, it could have not been.

 

[00:26:42] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. Right? But, you know, that is the opportunity for you to say, “Hey, I don’t, I don’t like that.” Right? 

 

[00:26:47] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:26:47] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:26:47] Christina Phillips: No, but by, you know, it, when I think about it, uh, okay, so if I say to somebody like, “Don’t hug me,” they keep hugging me- Mm-hmm … I’m gonna become hostile. Exact- Yeah. I really am. Yeah. And then I’m gonna become hostile- Yeah

 

[00:26:59] Christina Phillips: and then [00:27:00] that’s gonna be viewed as, wow, she’s like aggressive or what’s wrong with her? Or- Mm-hmm … she’s so uptight. And so- 

 

[00:27:07] Melissa Vo: Well, on paper though, you know, this, you said no to something and this person kept c- you know- Mm-hmm … crossing your boundaries. Mm-hmm. And so that could totally be the beginning of a potential case.

 

[00:27:15] Melissa Vo: Right? 

 

[00:27:16] Christina Phillips: But so could a hug be sexual harassment? You know what I’m saying? Like if I- It could be … say like, absolutely no. 

 

[00:27:22] Melissa Vo: But, and not in all cases, but it certainly could be. 

 

[00:27:25] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:27:25] Melissa Vo: Right? You know, it, people go through different levels of, of trauma in their past too. So people have, you know, different levels of comfort with certain, you know, certain amount of touching.

 

[00:27:34] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. Right? 

 

[00:27:35] Melissa Vo: Just because, you know, just because someone is, has a, a predisposition to be a little bit more, you know, sensitive towards certain, certain things, that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s, it’s okay to do that to them. 

 

[00:27:47] Christina Phillips: Right. Yeah. But practically, so I mean, the, this is a real situation for me ’cause I was in a situation- Right

 

[00:27:53] Christina Phillips: where it’s constantly wanting, somebody wanting to hug me. As a therapist, like, with, how, how do you [00:28:00] coach somebody to not be hostile 

 

[00:28:03] Deirdre Arato: with- Well, 

 

[00:28:04] Christina Phillips: it’s- Go ahead … 

 

[00:28:04] Deirdre Arato: because you have to recognize your boundaries, right? So we go through each experience, right? And we explore it. How did that make you feel? And if it makes you feel uncomfortable, then w- then we explore what kind of boundaries.

 

[00:28:17] Deirdre Arato: We wanna be proactive. So if this situation should ever happen again, how would you like to handle it? Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:28:22] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:28:23] Deirdre Arato: Right? So this is, you know, this is great, um, what’s the word that I’m looking for? It’s great, um- Practice? Role playing. 

 

[00:28:30] Christina Phillips: Oh, role playing. 

 

[00:28:30] Deirdre Arato: Um, it’s the role playing- Oh, got it, got it … that we do in therapy.

 

[00:28:33] Deirdre Arato: Okay. Got it. Right? Yeah. So, like, this is happening. This is making me feel anxious. What should I do here? Yeah. So let’s, let’s play it out. Let’s see. So you would, you would- We role play … hands-on. Absolutely. Absolutely. We, I do it all the time. Yeah. And it makes people feel more comfortable because then they have more tools in how to handle it moving forward.

 

[00:28:52] Christina Phillips: Yeah, because it seems, you know, on paper, simple. Like, okay, I don’t feel comfortable with that, so, you know, this or that. [00:29:00] But in real- and again, I’m speaking from experience, like, I’m really serious. Like, duh. Oh, I know that. Yeah, right. 

 

[00:29:06] Deirdre Arato: I can, I can attest to that, yes. You know that little stiff, you know, when you go in to hug somebody and they’re just really stiff?

 

[00:29:13] Deirdre Arato: Like, no. Yeah. And you’re just like, “All right. That’s awkward.” 

 

[00:29:16] Christina Phillips: Yeah, you’re like, “Mm.” 

 

[00:29:17] Deirdre Arato: No, but it, 

 

[00:29:18] Christina Phillips: I mean, if it were at work, if it were at work, and it has happened where- Yeah … like, do, you know, what’s the, what’s the line? I mean, somebody’s, they haven’t seen me in a long time. They’re going in to give, like, a, a friendly kiss on the cheek or a hi, and I’m like…

 

[00:29:32] Deirdre Arato: Like the episode of Friends when Rachel hu- kisses the guy. She goes, he goes in for some… Doesn’t she, like, kiss him? I don’t remember. I love Friends, though. Oh my gosh. But that happened to me. Yeah. When I was teaching- Mm … I had to meet with the assistant principal, and somebody walked in in front of me.

 

[00:29:48] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. And she hugged them, so I was like, “Oh, she must be a hugger.” So then- … when she went to me, I hugged her, and then she just stood there, and it was just like, “Uh.” I’m so sorry. So awkward. 

 

[00:29:59] Christina Phillips: [00:30:00] No, but I think that, I mean, that, that’s a perfect situation where the level of discomfort, if it were to happen over and over and over again- Mm-hmm

 

[00:30:08] Christina Phillips: for sure that’s a- Absolutely crossing every single boundary. 

 

[00:30:12] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. Yeah. 

 

[00:30:13] Christina Phillips: But I think the, the, I would be the person that needs coaching so that I’m not hostile. 

 

[00:30:18] Deirdre Arato: Right. 

 

[00:30:19] Christina Phillips: Right. Because I would- 

 

[00:30:20] Deirdre Arato: So come to therapy and we can work on 

 

[00:30:22] Christina Phillips: that. Yeah, that might be a first thing. That could be one- Yeah … of your therapeutic goals.

 

[00:30:25] Christina Phillips: I mean, you know, I doubt at this age it’s gonna change, but, um, you know, it, but again, in the workplace, it’s, it’s not just the hug, though. It can be any sort of touching for somebody who’s uncomfortable. 

 

[00:30:37] Melissa Vo: Yeah. It’s also, like, it, you know, it really depends on what your personal boundaries are and what your, what your limits are.

 

[00:30:42] Melissa Vo: Also, a lot of times in workplaces, you’re dealing with people from different cultures as well. Mm-hmm. I will say the first time that I was… You know, I had to kiss someone. You know, some… It, it’s a very European thing. Right. Oh, to kiss both cheeks. To kiss both cheeks. The first time that happened to me, I was like, “I, I don’t know about that.”

 

[00:30:56] Melissa Vo: You know? Right. But then I was like, “Actually, this is fine. This is, like, a cultural thing,” right? Mm-hmm. So it’s really [00:31:00] just establishing what you’re okay with. Right. But what does the law say? Like, what… The law, I would feel like it’s 

 

[00:31:04] Christina Phillips: not gonna protect me from a hugger. It could. 

 

[00:31:09] Melissa Vo: Could it? Yeah? It could. It could.

 

[00:31:10] Melissa Vo: Um, I don’t know that we would take the case on with just a hug. 

 

[00:31:13] Christina Phillips: Right. Right. But- Well, I mean, to your point earlier- Yeah … it may escalate into- 

 

[00:31:17] Melissa Vo: Exactly. Exactly … something else. It’s like if it’s a pattern of certain behavior, if it’s a pattern of hugging you after you say no, that could be something. 

 

[00:31:24] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm.

 

[00:31:24] Melissa Vo: Right? So it really just depends on the situation. It depends what you’ve also done to establish certain boundaries, what you’re okay with, and what that person knows you’re okay with. 

 

[00:31:32] Deirdre Arato: And you know what? Like, if I’m walking into work every day, why are you hugging me every day? I don’t need a hug- Yeah, that’s weird

 

[00:31:37] Deirdre Arato: from you every single 

 

[00:31:38] Christina Phillips: day. Yeah, no, I would be, I would be like- Like, what is that about? Exactly. That’s a situation where that’s very strange. 

 

[00:31:42] Deirdre Arato: Right. Why are you hugging this person every day? That’s, that’s weird. Yeah. That’s just weird. 

 

[00:31:45] Christina Phillips: If you’re, if you’re- But then, are you gonna go tell the supervisor, “Hey, this person’s-” Yeah.

 

[00:31:48] Christina Phillips: hugging me”? I am. Yeah. I 

 

[00:31:50] Deirdre Arato: am. Okay. 

 

[00:31:50] Christina Phillips: Okay. I am. Okay. 

 

[00:31:51] Deirdre Arato: I mean, me personally, I’m just… You know, but I mean, obviously- Well, you’re a therapist, so … I’m a little bit- You’re a little- I’m a little bit more trained to say like, “You know, we gotta cut this out.” [00:32:00] Yeah. But, um, for other people, that may be so, a step that you have to take.

 

[00:32:04] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:32:05] Christina Phillips: Yeah, I guess. And then, but I would be concerned if, and not to be- Freaked out about it … weird about me- Right … but I just know I’m putting myself into this situation because I know it absolutely happens in the workplace. Now what are they saying about me? Yeah. I told the supervisor- Mm-hmm … I don’t like being…

 

[00:32:20] Christina Phillips: Don’t touch me. 

 

[00:32:21] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:32:21] Christina Phillips: Now, now there’s the chitter chatter. Right, right. You know? And now how do you deal with that? 

 

[00:32:26] Melissa Vo: Right. 

 

[00:32:26] Christina Phillips: Now you’ll have to go back to the supervisor. Now everybody’s gossiping. So that’s why that would prevent me from speaking up. Right. 

 

[00:32:33] Melissa Vo: Yeah. ‘

 

[00:32:33] Christina Phillips: Cause I would be afraid of the rumors and- 

 

[00:32:36] Melissa Vo: That’s, again, like that’s- that’s also like questioning your reality again.

 

[00:32:39] Christina Phillips: Really. 

 

[00:32:40] Melissa Vo: Is this worth bringing up? 

 

[00:32:41] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:32:41] Melissa Vo: But of course, you have to weigh that for yourself. Every individual does. But, you know, say you are in the situation and you confide in a coworker, and the coworker goes, “This is weird. It’s really, really 

 

[00:32:51] Christina Phillips: weird.” 

 

[00:32:51] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. “You should, you know, you should report it.” Or the coworker says, you know, “That’s something that he always does.”

 

[00:32:55] Melissa Vo: You can respond to that and kind of be like, “He shouldn’t be doing that to everybody.” Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know? And [00:33:00] also just because he’s doing that to everybody doesn’t mean that he can do that to you. 

 

[00:33:03] Deirdre Arato: Good, good. Yep. Well, I like 

 

[00:33:04] Christina Phillips: this, I like this topic a lot, so with that… 

 

[00:33:09] Deirdre Arato: If you like this conversation, hit Subscribe.

 

[00:33:11] Deirdre Arato: We’re dropping new episodes and shorts all the time. 

 

[00:33:16] Christina Phillips: So as we wrap up this episode, what’s not making it in the company newsletter? And I can tell you, I think that awkward hug making me uncomfortable is not gonna make it. 

 

[00:33:24] Melissa Vo: Definitely not. 

 

[00:33:25] Christina Phillips: Silence framed as professionalism. 

 

[00:33:27] Melissa Vo: Right. Absolutely. Exactly. Mm-hmm.

 

[00:33:28] Melissa Vo: Exactly. What’s not gonna be in there is the company rainmaker, you know, hugging people. 

 

[00:33:35] Christina Phillips: Yeah, and the company’s not gonna do anything about it- Exactly … because they don’t wanna- Exactly … upset the, you know, the top producer- Yeah … or whatever. So I mean, what do you think? 

 

[00:33:45] Deirdre Arato: In my opinion, what’s not going to make it in the newsletter is the chronic stress that is caused by the silence.

 

[00:33:53] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:33:53] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:33:54] Melissa Vo: And that- Agreed … so the junior victim is going to disappear while the rainmaker succeeds. [00:34:00] 

 

[00:34:00] Christina Phillips: Yeah. That’s unfortunate, but you know what? I mean, I’m sure it happens all the time. 

 

[00:34:04] Melissa Vo: Right. 

 

[00:34:05] Christina Phillips: Next time on Not in the Newsletter, we’re talking about pregnancy and the discrimination that still comes with it, from denied time off to subtle jokes and sidelining.

 

[00:34:13] Christina Phillips: We’ll break down what’s legal, what’s harmful, and what you can actually do. Remember, your story is a spark that lights the way for someone else. Until next time.