How Entertainment Culture Can Hide Sexual Harassment

[00:00:00] Christina Phillips: Because the ballet world is, y- you know, if you cause problems, you may not ever work again. 

 

Shari Little: I had to sign that gag order because I needed the money. 

 

[00:00:10] Greg Calliste: Most people actually just take the hit and move on because they’re more concerned about their careers and the fear of being blacklisted in the whole industry.

 

[00:00:18] Christina Phillips: Especially in an industry like dance, you are trained to keep your mouth shut- Yes … and just do whatever you’re supposed to do to get ahead. 

 

[00:00:25] Greg Calliste: There is no industry where touching you inappropriately is appropriate. 

 

[00:00:29] Christina Phillips: What about the comments on your body? How and when is it not okay?

 

[00:00:43] Christina Phillips: We’re told it’s the price of admission, that if you want to be a star, you have to play the game. But a two-and-a-half year contract shouldn’t feel like a trap, and a tour bus shouldn’t be a crime scene. Today, we’re looking at how the entertainment industry uses blacklists and expensive legal threats to keep victims in [00:01:00] line.

 

[00:01:00] Christina Phillips: I’m Christina Phillips. Welcome to Not In The Newsletter. Today I’m here with Greg Khalise, attorney from Phillips & Associates, and Shari Little, former professional ballet dancer. This is exciting for me because I also am a former professional ballet dancer, and Shari and I have known each other for many, many years.

 

[00:01:16] Christina Phillips: Um, we didn’t necessarily work in the same company, but w- the industry is extremely small, so our cross of paths on different occasions, we have mutual friends, and we have some very similar experiences. So today I’m gonna jumpstart this with hearing a little bit about Shari’s story and, uh, we can’t wait to get into it.

 

[00:01:34] Christina Phillips: So thank you for joining us and- 

 

[00:01:36] Shari Little: You’re, you’re welcome. Yeah. And I- I’m 

 

[00:01:38] Christina Phillips: excited … 

 

[00:01:38] Shari Little: so yes, back in 2001, I was in a situation with a ballet company, um, where I was pregnant and working for the school of that company. Okay. And, uh, I was friends and mixed up in a little group, a pod of people who there was, uh, a, a situation going on [00:02:00] that was a compromising situation, uh, and a, a, a, a s- a sexual situation as well.

 

[00:02:06] Shari Little: I was not involved, but I was friends of the ones involved. 

 

[00:02:12] Christina Phillips: Okay. 

 

[00:02:12] Shari Little: And so what ended up happening was over years that it went on, but, uh, but when everything was in, being discovered- Like coming to light? Yeah, coming to light with all people involved, then I was, um- Basically, uh, terminated because I was in this little world 

 

[00:02:36] Christina Phillips: But you weren’t involved in this sexual relationship.

 

[00:02:38] Christina Phillips: I was not, no. You were just a friend of one of the people- Yes … or b- or all people I was a friend with all 

 

[00:02:44] Shari Little: pe- all the p- all of the ones involved 

 

[00:02:47] Christina Phillips: But because you had knowledge of it. Yes. I mean, the thing is, is that because you were aware of, I guess, what this was an affair, um, I mean, that in and of itself, right, that’s not illegal, right?

 

[00:02:59] Christina Phillips: That [00:03:00] can- 

 

[00:03:00] Greg Calliste: No. 

 

[00:03:01] Christina Phillips: I mean, the bo- it was, you know, but there was a power dynamic. 

 

[00:03:05] Shari Little: Yes. 

 

[00:03:05] Christina Phillips: So the, somebody was with the boss. Yes, 

 

[00:03:07] Shari Little: yes. 

 

[00:03:08] Christina Phillips: And I’d just like to take the viewer, the listener back to when you’re on tour with a ballet company or a show, you’re going and you’re on buses and trains and planes, and then you’re going into hotels, and you’re eating meals together, and you are really intertwined.

 

[00:03:24] Christina Phillips: There’s almost no separation from your personal life and your work life. And so sometimes those lines get very blurred, and it sounds like, I mean, you became aware of the situation because you were maybe on tour- Yes … and you were hearing about the relationship from, you know, the friends and- Yes … but why would they have fired you?

 

[00:03:48] Shari Little: Well, what happened was the person who was directing the school, uh, was one of the people involved, and she [00:04:00] was extremely hurt and felt betrayed by me. I under- By 

 

[00:04:03] Christina Phillips: you? 

 

[00:04:04] Shari Little: By me, yeah, as a friend. 

 

[00:04:06] Christina Phillips: Okay. She… 

 

[00:04:06] Shari Little: Yes. I ended up becoming the scapegoat for the entire company because that person was asking everyone in the organization when they found out, how did they know, and they literally threw me under the bus.

 

[00:04:22] Shari Little: I, I’m that kind of person. I, I don’t know why things like that s- seems to come in my direction, but being pregnant, it was, it was a very hormonal time als- as well. So it was, it was a scary development, and when I was terminated, I literally was just called up to the office. I was told to take all my things and leave, and I could not re- Immediately?

 

[00:04:43] Shari Little: Immediately, on the spot, and I would not be allowed to return. I was told, out of the goodness of their heart- That they were gonna pay out to the end of my contract. We, in a ballet company, you’re on a, a s- seasonal contract, [00:05:00] so you have to be rehired year to year. You don’t have a long-term contract. So- That’s code if y- in case you gain weight.

 

[00:05:08] Shari Little: Yeah. Yeah, that’s usually the reason for the f- especially for the female dancers. I mean, I, 

 

[00:05:11] Christina Phillips: you know, we don’t have- Or you have- That’s not, like, that can’t be proven, but, you know, we’ll have, we can get into that 

 

[00:05:15] Shari Little: later … or if you have, or if, or if you have a big injury that’s costing them a lot of money. You know, if you’re out for a long period of time, they need to j- have you move on because they’re losing money and you’re not dancing.

 

[00:05:23] Shari Little: So yeah, there’s all kinds of things like that that go on. But in my case, I had worked for the organizh- organization for five years, and I’d been a professional dancer with the organization, and then I taught in the, the school as well, and I ran it, and at the education program. So- I mean, this was your whole career.

 

[00:05:40] Shari Little: You were- Yes … a professional from the time you graduated, or even before you graduated from- Yeah … because I was a professional- Yeah … while I was still in high school. Mm-hmm. So, you know, ballet dancers start extremely young. Yeah, for, so from the age of 17 to 36, I think I retired from performing, and then I continued working in the organization until 2000, 2001.

 

[00:05:59] Shari Little: Did they know [00:06:00] about your pregnancy? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was quite big already. So they knew that by terminating you, they were just sort of like, like- Yes. The other favor that they… This was really important, actually, was that they… This is how I knew that they knew that they were wrong, to be honest with you.

 

[00:06:17] Shari Little: It’s because they decided to go ahead and pay for my health insurance through the birth of my child, and I had a C-section, so it’s a good thing. Yeah. I wouldn’t have had the money to pay for that. No. So, um, that they probably did not have to do. But what they made me do as well is I had to sign a gag order so, because the press did come to speak with me, and I, I had to say, “I’m not allowed to speak or I will not be paid through the end of my contract,” which was not actually legally binding.

 

[00:06:48] Shari Little: Right. That, that, they couldn’t have done that. So I, to be honest, I just wanted out, and I left, and I just, I was all alone. 

 

[00:06:56] Christina Phillips: Wow. 

 

[00:06:57] Shari Little: And anybody associat- associated with me at [00:07:00] that time felt in danger of losing their jobs by association, so I said, “Don’t talk to me for a while. Just leave. I, I will be fine.” I moved up to another county, and I just tried to hide 

 

[00:07:13] Christina Phillips: and just move on with my life and find other work.

 

[00:07:15] Christina Phillips: Such, it’s such a traumatic, traumatic ex- ex- experience, story. It was- My gosh … 

 

[00:07:20] Shari Little: it was really, it was really hard. I’m telling you. You find out what you’re made out, uh, of sometimes with life circumstances. But I just kept pushing forward, and I moved on from it, and, and believe it or not, I forgave everybody, so.

 

[00:07:34] Christina Phillips: Wow. I mean, that- It’s just 

 

[00:07:35] Shari Little: how I am … 

 

[00:07:36] Christina Phillips: for y- to y- I mean, with your expertise, Greg, I mean, what, w- 

 

[00:07:39] Shari Little: uh, like, what’s the first thing wrong here? 

 

[00:07:41] Greg Calliste: Well, do you mind if we unpack this story a little bit? Um, when you say you were kind of like a outlier, um, why were you the one that was focused in on for this kind of activity?

 

[00:07:54] Greg Calliste: You mean, if you weren’t directly involved in the, in the thing itself. 

 

[00:07:57] Shari Little: I think because [00:08:00] everyone in the organization who was being bombarded by the other person about information, they needed someone and not them. They didn’t want to be the ones who said, “Oh, yeah, we all knew about this. It’s been going on for years.”

 

[00:08:15] Shari Little: They didn’t want to say that. So they said, well, the one person heard, “Oh, well, Sherry’s… We’re saying Sherry said it. We’re saying She-” And I think that’s how it happened. I- to be honest, I think that’s… I don’t know for sure. 

 

[00:08:26] Greg Calliste: Was it allegations of, uh, uh, widespread, like, sexual harassment going on or something?

 

[00:08:30] Shari Little: There was no, it wasn’t really sexual har- harassment. It was, it was, uh, everyone was con- consenting adults who was in, who were involved. I see. But one was married to one, and I was friends with all of them, and they felt betrayed by me. And because they thought that I was the one telling everyone, they also felt that I was causing a big problem.

 

[00:08:50] Shari Little: Okay. And this was including the person at the top, really needed for me to be that person. And so I hon- honestly, I just took it and just took the hit [00:09:00] because I, I just wanted out at that point. So, uh, and I didn’t have the money for an attorney. S- I, I just had to… I asked around and people said, “Well, you know, your contract ends in, in June anyway, so you have no– even though you’re pregnant, you don’t have a harassment case.”

 

[00:09:17] Shari Little: I just took their advice and trusted it. 

 

[00:09:20] Greg Calliste: Did you ever make actual, an actual complaint to anyone? 

 

[00:09:22] Shari Little: No. 

 

[00:09:23] Greg Calliste: So they just focused in on you just like that? You just seemed… Hmm. Well. 

 

[00:09:27] Christina Phillips: Because the ballet world is, y- you know, if you cause problems, you may not ever work again. Yeah, I- So you really have to, I mean, hopefully it’s changing, but I don’t think it’s changing that much, right?

 

[00:09:41] Christina Phillips: Wouldn’t you say the mentality is, like, don’t cause any problems? 

 

[00:09:43] Shari Little: I, I definitely think it’s don’t cause any problems. And ballet dancers in the, uh, for the most part, you’re told that you’re too heavy, that you have to be perfect. You’re screamed and yelled at. Like, it’s still acceptable in the ballet world, I, which I don’t understand.

 

[00:09:59] Shari Little: [00:10:00] Even tea- the teaching of y- little kids is that it’s okay to be tough and strong and discipline the children. I’m like, I said, “But we don’t allow these types of things in public schools or in the school system. Why would we allow it just ’cause it’s an art form?” You know? And so I, I don’t teach like that.

 

[00:10:18] Shari Little: I don’t agree with it. I had a very loving first teacher, and if I hadn’t had her, I would not have become a ballerina. I, I believe in being kind to people no matter what. You can still discipline them in a kind way. So the other thing that happened, which, uh, this is one thing that I always wanted to ask an attorney about, was that they They also came up with a reason why they were letting me go, and the reason was that I was speaking inappropriately to children, which never happened.

 

[00:10:45] Greg Calliste: Were you speaking to children? 

 

[00:10:46] Shari Little: No, not about this subject, no. Okay. 

 

[00:10:49] Greg Calliste: So did they- 

 

[00:10:50] Shari Little: Or about any subject other than what I’m supposed to be speaking to children about. 

 

[00:10:54] Greg Calliste: I mean, did they give you any details about what it w- No. So they just gave you a blanket and said- Yeah, it was 

 

[00:10:57] Shari Little: just a blanket state- and that was kinda last minute.

 

[00:10:59] Greg Calliste: Were [00:11:00] you cur- did you ask what they were m- about the details about what they- 

 

[00:11:03] Shari Little: No, I just said, “Well, that’s not what has been happening.” I said, “You guys have watched my classes. You know how I…” I said, “The children all love me and the parents all love me.” Like, I- And 

 

[00:11:11] Christina Phillips: you’re still teaching to this day, right?

 

[00:11:12] Christina Phillips: You’ve been teaching your entire- 

 

[00:11:14] Shari Little: In fact, after, after I left, I was pregnant, like about this big. Mm. And I had to go get work for after my baby was born, so because I was a single parent. So I went everywhere, New World School of the Arts, Boca Ballet, up to Ballet Florida. I was offered a job in every single place because my reputation already preceded me.

 

[00:11:35] Shari Little: Okay. So I… It’s obvious that’s not what I was doing. I wasn’t speaking inappropriately to children, and it could’ve hurt my career, but it, you know. Fortunately. Yeah, but still- Right … but you were 

 

[00:11:45] Christina Phillips: very put at risk. You know, pregnant, you know, and what if you didn’t get a job immediately? Right. I mean, if that happened in this, in, in…

 

[00:11:53] Christina Phillips: This is a long time ago, but if it were something less like this were to happen in this day and age, Greg, what, what would [00:12:00] her… Like, what could she do? 

 

[00:12:03] Greg Calliste: Well, there’s a t- a concept in, in, in employment law called pretext. And essentially it’s when you, um… when the employer makes up a reason to terminate you even though that reason has no, um, no relation to anything, and sometimes it just comes out of thin air, and we call it pretextual excuse.

 

[00:12:21] Greg Calliste: Uh, and, and it is retaliation when they start accusing you of things- Mm … that you never did or, or, or, um, that have no basis in fact. Um, then it’s, it’s, it’s how we… It’s, it’s a, it’s a term called pretext that we use to def- to assert cases of retaliation. It’s basically stating that, uh, you had no good faith business justification for that termination, so you just made up any excuse to terminate someone, and it happens generally in, uh, I, I won’t p- I won’t put a percent on it, but a very large, if not a majority of the cases in where individuals are terminated, um, under these circumstances.

 

[00:12:58] Greg Calliste: So yeah. 

 

[00:12:59] Christina Phillips: So [00:13:00] is that what you would say would be the first wrong thing with this situation? 

 

[00:13:04] Greg Calliste: There’s… From what I heard, there was many wrong things in this situation. Um, pick one. But I think that first of all, focusing in on you… Well, let me, let me just backtrack and just say that in the entertainment industry, um, it, it, the, the ballerinas included, and ballets, um, it almost seems like, um- When they wanna get rid of you, they could say anything or do anything, and because they understand that you have reputational issues, that you wanna continue to work, and that any little stain or checker or, or check mark on your reputation, um, could harm that, the pretextual excuses come and they come quickly and they come easily because they know that you’re not going to, uh, debate that.

 

[00:13:49] Greg Calliste: Most people, um, we find actually just take the hit and move on because they’re more concerned about their careers and the fear of not being, of being blacklisted in the whole industry, that they [00:14:00] just take it and they kinda move on. So a lot of these things that happened, uh, um, to you for example, um, don’t even go noticed or talked about or discussed, and people just kinda move on.

 

[00:14:09] Greg Calliste: You find that a, a, a very large percentage of people in these industries have gone through it in some way, shape, or form and just remain silent victims of it, um, focusing in more on their career and then, um… So, um, I would say in your situation, um, did that play a factor in, in why you just kinda like…

 

[00:14:32] Greg Calliste: ‘Cause, ’cause at that time you said you didn’t speak to an attorney. 

 

[00:14:35] Shari Little: Yeah. I, I spo- I did speak to one attorney whose daughter went to the school, and she wanted nothing to do with it. 

 

[00:14:42] Greg Calliste: Well, I think the first thing that I want, I should wa- I should mention in a situation like this, this is that people who are victimized in these situations should understand that you don’t need money.

 

[00:14:51] Greg Calliste: Like, there are a lot of attorneys that will speak to you, give you free consultations. Most employment attorneys will give you a free consultation, talk to you, and walk you [00:15:00] through, especially, you know, in our firm, for example, Phillips & Associates, our consultations are free, and our attorneys spend a lot of time speaking to people every day, just not necessarily giving advice, but steering them in the right direction.

 

[00:15:12] Greg Calliste: Um, I do it all the time. And so if you have a situation like this and if you’re even just concerned about, uh, just trying to get answers, uh, to situations or maybe trying to clarify some things, trying to figure out what your legal rights are, just call an attorney. You, you would, you’d be surprised and amazed about how many attorneys are helpful to you, particularly when you’re, when you’re, um, a, a victim of sexual abuse, sexual harassment, or if you’re being retaliated against, you’re being scapegoated in a situation like this, you’d be surprised at how the, the droves of attorneys that’ll, that’ll speak to you.

 

[00:15:48] Greg Calliste: So don’t, so have no fear. At least go consult and do it while it’s happening. Don’t wait even a year. Like, it’s, it’s best to go and get advice while it’s happening so that attorney can either guide you in [00:16:00] the right direction or kind of give you advice if something’s happening, maybe sign up your case and, and, and, and put- and help you to protect your rights.

 

[00:16:08] Christina Phillips: Thank goodness that that’s an option because, you know, I think that that’s not common knowledge amongst so many people. You know, especially in an industry like dance. I mean, it’s, you are trained to keep your mouth shut- Yes … and just do whatever you’re supposed to do to get ahead. 

 

[00:16:23] Greg Calliste: These industries are what I refer to as big small industries, meaning that- Right

 

[00:16:28] Greg Calliste: they’re big industries, but everybody knows everybody. 

 

[00:16:30] Christina Phillips: Oh, yeah. For sure. 

 

[00:16:31] Greg Calliste: So, so when you call an attorney, we have an attorney-client privilege that attaches to us immediately to the call. So even though you tell us something, it’s not gonna go out there. It’s not like we can go out there and go tell you about, you know, tell your school or instructor- Yeah

 

[00:16:43] Greg Calliste: or anyone what you said. It’s confidential. So again, that’s another reason why it’s a good idea to go speak to an attorney. 

 

[00:16:49] Christina Phillips: Did they have an HR department in this thing? 

 

[00:16:52] Shari Little: Did, did they? I- 

 

[00:16:53] Christina Phillips: I, I don’t know. I don’t know if some- If 

 

[00:16:55] Shari Little: they did, I don’t even know. I would- 

 

[00:16:58] Christina Phillips: So that would not have been an option to 

 

[00:16:59] Shari Little: be like, “Hey- And to [00:17:00] be honest with you, that doesn’t mean they would’ve been on my side.

 

[00:17:02] Shari Little: I, I’ve dealt with HR departments in other organizations, large organizations, and- They’re not always on the- … they were not on my side because they actually went to the higher u- my people a- and, and said, “Oh, this person called us about this particular thing.” I’m like, “Are you supposed to be telling my boss?”

 

[00:17:20] Christina Phillips: Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t think that HR is supposed to… Well, we have a whole episode about HR coming up, so that’s gonna be exciting, and we’ll be able, we’ll, we’ll dive into that. But, um, and just, you know, as an aside, do you think she was getting better parts because of that? Wow. Well, uh, if this is 

 

[00:17:39] Shari Little: ever seen by this person, they’re- 

 

[00:17:41] Christina Phillips: Well, I don’t wanna say that.

 

[00:17:43] Christina Phillips: No, but I mean, you know, you can see sometimes when there are- Yeah … two people of equal talent. You know, we all know- Right … who has, where you are. You know, there, it’s a hierarchy. It’s you start in the corps de ballet, you move up to soloist or demi-soloist, and you move into a principal. Sometimes if you’re in the corps, you can be [00:18:00] plucked to have a principal, uh, role or something.

 

[00:18:03] Christina Phillips: So there are kinda ways- No, there 

 

[00:18:05] Shari Little: was definitely st- some of that. The, the thing with me that I have, uh, I’ve gotten better over the years, but I’m much too open and free. I trust everybody. And I was told at the time, “Don’t trust this particular person because I think this particular person is saying everything that you’re saying to the person, you know, or my boss.”

 

[00:18:28] Greg Calliste: Yeah. 

 

[00:18:29] Shari Little: And I’m like, “No, no, no.” And yeah, they were right. They, they were right. So you learn, uh, through your life you need to keep your mouth shut. I just- Well, though, but I mean, this is, you know, you 

 

[00:18:38] Christina Phillips: could have had a long career with this company. Right. You know, you could have stayed there and, um- 

 

[00:18:44] Shari Little: I mean, I wasn’t finished dancing.

 

[00:18:46] Shari Little: I could have gone another four years for sure, but- 

 

[00:18:48] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:18:49] Greg Calliste: Well, let me just back that up and say, ’cause the question was, is that illegal, and I said no, but you know what? There’s a lot of moving parts to that question. It’s 

 

[00:18:56] Christina Phillips: a crazy story. Yeah. It- It’s a really crazy story. 

 

[00:18:58] Greg Calliste: Yeah. You know, well, the, the, [00:19:00] the answer is it could be unlawful.

 

[00:19:02] Greg Calliste: It, it might be, it might not be. It depend, depends. Power and dynamics and all those things taken into account. Um, I mean, we’re talking about ballerinas that are very young. Sometimes they’re minors and they’re told that they have to get into these relationships. So in that situation it might be unlawful.

 

[00:19:18] Greg Calliste: I would say w- it is unlawful. Um, also, if the individual that they’re involved with is like a producer or something like that in there, using that power dynamic to, to, to pressure folks into engaging in these relationships, then it might be unlawful. There’s a lot of ways that it could be unlawful, so I can’t just say right off the bat that it’s not unlawful.

 

[00:19:37] Shari Little: Yeah, I think that it, that was a consensual thing. These were complete adults who were get involved in all that. The, the thing that I think for me looking back at it that, uh, just was- You know, really not right. It wasn’t ethical, was that I was pregnant. I had worked for the organization for p- several years.

 

[00:19:56] Shari Little: There was no need to, for this to happen to me. First of all, I [00:20:00] was let go before the other person, who was the one involved in it. I was let go four months prior to her being- 

 

[00:20:05] Christina Phillips: But so she was, uh, ultimately let go as well. 

 

[00:20:08] Shari Little: Yes. 

 

[00:20:08] Christina Phillips: Well, because did the relationship end? Yes. Or, so the relation- When the wife found out, the relationship ended, and then she was terminated.

 

[00:20:15] Christina Phillips: And she 

 

[00:20:15] Shari Little: was terminated. 

 

[00:20:16] Christina Phillips: Well, that’s a different episode. Right. 

 

[00:20:18] Greg Calliste: Yo, wow. 

 

[00:20:18] Christina Phillips: See- That’s a different episode. But the fact of the matter, um, you know, since there are so many moving parts, but what about the pregnancy piece? I mean, like, w- how do you fire a pregnant person? 

 

[00:20:30] Greg Calliste: Well, it’s, it’s not- 

 

[00:20:32] Christina Phillips: Woman … 

 

[00:20:33] Greg Calliste: per se unlawful to terminate a person who is pregnant.

 

[00:20:38] Greg Calliste: It’s ill-advised, but if the pregnancy is the reason for the termination, or if it’s a consideration in the termination, then it becomes problematic. I think picking out someone Be c- who is pregnant, and as she said you were visually showing. 

 

[00:20:52] Shari Little: Yeah. 

 

[00:20:52] Greg Calliste: And then using a pretextual excuse, that’s a, you know, besides the retaliation for the, you know, the sexual [00:21:00] relationship, um, you also have potential retaliation or, or, or a pregnancy termination, a termination because of pregnancy.

 

[00:21:08] Greg Calliste: So there, there are a lot of different avenues that you could explore as an attorney in a situation like this. And again, it’s, it’s important that you go to an attorney to figure out what type of options you might have. Because even though she wasn’t directly involved in the relationships that were happening, still had a case based on the pregnancy, still had a case based on retaliation, still had a case based on probably if she continues to talk, I’ll just pick out a whole host of other things that- 

 

[00:21:33] Christina Phillips: Can they do a gag order?

 

[00:21:34] Christina Phillips: Can they make somebody not speak? 

 

[00:21:37] Greg Calliste: They can. You can agree, um, to write away your rights, but it has to be your consent. It has to be an agreement. You know, they can’t coerce you or, um, threaten your career or even subtly say that, you know, “You’ll never work in this industry again, or if you don’t speak,” things like that.

 

[00:21:55] Greg Calliste: That’s when it becomes unlawful, when they put force on you or coercion [00:22:00] or intimidation to make you, to, to gag you. And a 

 

[00:22:03] Shari Little: lot of- I, yeah, that’s exactly what happened to me because I was told I was not going to be paid out to the end of my contract unless I signed that gag order. So I had to sign that gag order because I needed the money, and then I find out they had to pay me through the end of that contract anyway.

 

[00:22:20] Greg Calliste: Were you in a union? 

 

[00:22:21] Shari Little: No. We d- we were not union, no. 

 

[00:22:24] Greg Calliste: Well, then you have potential breach of contract action there as well on top of, you know, on top of everything else. Because if, if you’re a part of a collective bargaining unit, which a lot of these performers are, then, um, that’s a, that’s something that the union will engage in, um, a wrongful termination.

 

[00:22:40] Greg Calliste: But if you’re not and you have a, but you have a contract, they can’t say, “I’m not gonna pay you out if you have a, if you sign a signed agreement,” not for that reason. Right, right. So that, so then on top of the other things I just mentioned, we have another thing which is breach of contract. Bad 

 

[00:22:54] Shari Little: faith- And, and then I was told that that gag order that I signed, that’s legally binding because I did [00:23:00] sign away the rights to speak to anybody about it.

 

[00:23:02] Shari Little: And what’s was crazy, I went to see another smaller ballet company and I’m sitting in the audience And the person who reviews for the ballet, the, was sitting next to romance me. And I was like, “Oh, my God.” And she’s like, “Sheri Little?” And she wanted to talk to me. I said, “I, I’m not able to speak with you about it.

 

[00:23:23] Shari Little: I cannot speak with you about it, not one word.” And she was like, “And you’re pre-” And I said, “No, please, don’t make me…” Uh, because I was afraid I was gonna say something where I was gonna get sued, you know? I was so– It was just, it all turned, it flipped onto, “Yay, Sheri’s gonna take the hit. The rest of us can just go on our merry way.”

 

[00:23:43] Shari Little: That’s basically what I felt happened. 

 

[00:23:44] Christina Phillips: Yeah. No, because dancers, like you said, there’s a seasonal contract and then in the off-time, a lot of dancers will try to find other jobs or gigs or whatever, or collect unemployment. Unemployment. Mm-hmm. Um, it’s just a standard industry thing. But, um, but still, ballet dancers, for the amount of [00:24:00] training, for the amount of time and effort, the salaries are still very small.

 

[00:24:04] Christina Phillips: They have not risen to, when you think about professional sports and how much money they make, this is an athletic field and it’s very demanding. It’s very consuming. 

 

[00:24:15] Shari Little: Very demanding. I mean, you give up your whole life. You, from the age of seven until you’re, you retire from dancing, and you’re doing it four and five hours a day after school and on the weekends.

 

[00:24:24] Shari Little: You dedicate your whole life to it. You don’t eat. You… I severed my Achilles tendon when I was in Pittsburgh Ballet Theater. I recovered from that, came all the way back and danced five more years. I mean, it takes extreme drive, and you’re not paid much at all. I mean, I’m still struggling financially. My, I will always struggle financially, and I’m not gonna be able to retire.

 

[00:24:43] Shari Little: I’m 65. No, but the thing is, is that with your, with the f- well, you said you had four months left on your contract. Yeah. So that was necessary, like, that money was- Oh, it was. I needed it. I had to have 

 

[00:24:53] Greg Calliste: it. And, and pregnant, that creates, there’s layers to that. You know, there’s layers to the coercion there. 

 

[00:24:58] Shari Little: It wasn’t a good look, for [00:25:00] sure, ’cause I was being called, a lot of people were calling me at the time, and I had to just, I just said, “I can’t speak.

 

[00:25:05] Shari Little: I don’t wanna talk.” And I was isolating. I was by myself and pregnant, and I felt super, super alone, and I didn’t have any family here. So it was a rough time for me. So yeah, I, I got through it. A 

 

[00:25:17] Greg Calliste: lot of folks who, who sign these contracts think you’re bound to them, and you may not be. Again, go to a lawyer to find out.

 

[00:25:23] Greg Calliste: Even after you sign- Mm-hmm … go to a lawyer if you have, if you’re having thoughts about the coercion or the way you were, um, treated. Uh, you should go to a lawyer and have that checked out because that contract might not even be binding- Mm-hmm … if they really coerced you. 

 

[00:25:38] Christina Phillips: Wow, that’s so interesting. So what could she have done in this situation?

 

[00:25:42] Christina Phillips: Like, what, what do you think, I mean, just documented it? I mean, there were no cell phones at the time, so there was no video or anything like that. Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:25:51] Greg Calliste: I think that, of, of course, going to a lawyer would be, would, would be important. But Complaining. Um, by the way, [00:26:00] folks say that there’s no HR or HR is defunct.

 

[00:26:03] Greg Calliste: We all know that HR’s job is to protect the employer, not to help the employees and things of that nature. But for an attorney, it’s not necessarily about what HR did, it’s about what A- or HR didn’t do that creates the liability. So- Mm-hmm … go to HR anyway. Even if you think that they are, um, useless or they have no, you know, no teeth, are toothless, so to speak, s- still go to HR because it’s the allegation that you went that’s important.

 

[00:26:30] Greg Calliste: Yes. Mm-hmm. It’s the allegation that they took no action that’s important. It’s the allegation that they retaliate against you when you reported it that’s important. It’s the things that they don’t do that create the liability. If they actually did what they were supposed to do, you wouldn’t need to speak to lawyers, right?

 

[00:26:45] Greg Calliste: No. Right? So when you say, “Oh, I fear HR,” or HR, we- you know, “I was scared to talk to them because they’re kind of…” Um, create a record. 

 

[00:26:53] Shari Little: Do it anyway. Yeah. 

 

[00:26:54] Greg Calliste: Go to HR, um, ’cause a lot of times attorneys would say, “My client made a [00:27:00] complaint and HR didn’t take any action.” Um, some- uh, some- and it, it’s the creation of the record.

 

[00:27:07] Greg Calliste: Sometimes HR keeps the complaint somewhere And then the attorney gets to ask, “Well, what did you do in response to this complaint when you got it?” And if you s- if you hear dead air or if there’s nothing there, that’s the liability. So it’s these things that you think that, um, weaken your case that actually strengthen your case, and that’s why you should actually speak to a lawyer.

 

[00:27:29] Christina Phillips: That’s good to know. And, you know, c- this, this, this podcast is called Not in the Newsletter. And, um, the thing is, is that in a ballet company, there’s no newsletter. We… There, there’s no… I mean, maybe times have changed and, you know, they’re getting a little bit more content out to their employees. But that would be, if there were a newsletter- Mm

 

[00:27:51] Christina Phillips: in, in show business, I would think that that wouldn’t be in it. Like HR. Yeah. Like, go to HR anyway because, you know- 

 

[00:27:58] Shari Little: Yes … 

 

[00:27:58] Christina Phillips: even though if they’re not gonna help you, [00:28:00] they’re gonna… You’re gonna start a record. 

 

[00:28:01] Shari Little: I mean, that’s… Actually, that’s good. That’s really good information- Yeah … for me currently, so I, I, I’m glad to know that.

 

[00:28:06] Shari Little: That’s really interesting. I’ve never heard it put that way, so I think that’s valuable information. 

 

[00:28:13] Christina Phillips: Yeah, it would definitely not be in a newsletter. And, you know, again, it’s, it’s also in this podcast, we’re trying to let people know what their rights are or what they can do in these situations. Because w- especially in this type of industry, you just really feel very powerless, and e- there, you don’t know where to turn or what to do.

 

[00:28:31] Christina Phillips: And, and we’d like to help change that- Mm … um, so that, you know, people h- feel that they’re empowered to be able to be in control of their own destiny. Because to be fired when you’re that pregnant- Yeah … I mean, it is, for not w- wrongdoing. 

 

[00:28:46] Shari Little: And so, and for some reason, I felt guilty, and I really don’t know what I w- felt guilty about.

 

[00:28:51] Shari Little: I felt guilt… I kept thinking, “Have I s- spoken inappropriately to chil- what have I said that I don’t realize?” And I questioned [00:29:00] everything about myself after that and just, I, you know, it was just a really difficult time to- 

 

[00:29:06] Greg Calliste: It’s the okey-doke. What we call with okey-doke is, uh, the employer will throw things at you to make you feel like you are the- Yeah

 

[00:29:13] Greg Calliste: you know, the wrongdoer, and that’s part of the chorus of tactics to keep you from talking. 

 

[00:29:17] Shari Little: And I fell for it, like, hook, line, and sinker. The, I mean, I was tr- I was like, “Okay. I, I won’t say a word. I’m leaving. Goodbye.” 

 

[00:29:24] Christina Phillips: You know? That’s, yeah, but it wasn’t your fault. It wasn’t your fault, you know? And it’s unfortunate that you were put in that predicament.

 

[00:29:31] Christina Phillips: It was crazy. 

 

[00:29:32] Greg Calliste: So for we, we actually, um, at, at our firm, we get cases from performers, uh, similar to yours. You know, we have anecdotally speak- anecdotally speaking, um, I have a c- a, a, a client who was in a, a performing of a very famous, uh, performing, uh I’m, I’m trying to say things without disclosing it so that, so f- the folks don’t pinpoint what case I’m talking about.

 

[00:29:56] Greg Calliste: But he was, he, he was involved in a very popular [00:30:00] b- b- Broadway show, and, um, he complained f- about sexual harassment, and he complained about other people being sexually harassed, um, as part of his responsibilities in a union, ’cause a lot of these places are unionized. And then they terminated him the first day that he went out on m- on paternity leave.

 

[00:30:22] Greg Calliste: Um, so because he w- he had fear and because he was worried about his wife and the baby and all, you know, all the coercive tactics they put on him, he didn’t come to us for almost s- you know, it was two years later, um, when he came to us, and his case was almost dead factually. Nobody else wanted to take his case, and we took his case on, and we, we were able to help him out.

 

[00:30:42] Greg Calliste: Um- So, um- That’s good. 

 

[00:30:46] Christina Phillips: I wish I’d know, I wish I’d known you back then. No, but what is the, um, I guess, you know, like sort of statute of limitations? Is it different state by state? 

 

[00:30:54] Greg Calliste: It is. Um, u- under federal law though, it’s, it’s kind of consistent throughout states. [00:31:00] Uh, either you have 180 days or 300 days, depending.

 

[00:31:03] Greg Calliste: New York State has one of the more, uh, friendlier, uh, well it’s just in New York City as well, has one of the more friendlier employment statutes, and California I hear is even better than New York State, which is good ’cause this is where most of this stuff happens. But don’t, uh, take my word for that, ’cause there’s 50 states and 50 different statute of limitations.

 

[00:31:24] Greg Calliste: I would say, generally speaking, within two, three months or so, you should actually just go and get some advice, uh, so you can figure out what your statute of limitations are. You should speak to an attorney, I would say, within 90 days, three months of what happened, just so you can preserve your rights in case you do have rights.

 

[00:31:41] Greg Calliste: ‘Cause I just named… Oh, wait. By, by the way, the breach of contract thing that I talk about, that’s another angle that you attack, that you can attack them on. That’s generally about six years you have for that. 

 

[00:31:50] Christina Phillips: Oh, wow. So- That’s a lot longer. 

 

[00:31:52] Greg Calliste: Yeah. So I mean, there’s different angles that you can do, and you can approach.

 

[00:31:55] Greg Calliste: And you came to me five years later, I would say, “Okay, well, the sexual, the, the [00:32:00] retaliation thing, maybe we can’t do much with that. But that breach of contract thing- Mm … that’s still alive. Let’s see w- w- what, what we can do there.” So again, um, don’t wait too long. 

 

[00:32:11] Christina Phillips: Very good to know. Very good to know. I mean, I wish, you know, for your sake that there was more time, but it’s, you know, so many years ago.

 

[00:32:17] Christina Phillips: But, you know, the thing is and the point is is that in this industry, stuff like this still goes on. Like, like it’s, it’s not really changed very much. I mean, I… You know, there’s still an awareness. Me Too was great to bring, you know, awareness to what particularly women are going through, but in this p- industry, where there are so many young women, they start so young, they are vulnerable, um, it’s, it’s, there’s not a lot of protection.

 

[00:32:46] Shari Little: Yeah. And, and then you’re really, you’re really brought up to think that you do what you’re told, basically. It’s not about empowering you. It’s, it’s about them controlling you, because that’s just part of the business. [00:33:00] I mean, that’s how I feel about it. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I was always having to change myself to be what they wanted me to be all the time.

 

[00:33:08] Shari Little: It’s just part of the aesthetics of ballet also. It’s, it’s, it’s complicated. Yeah. ‘Cause we have to s- like, with the weight situation, you’ve gotta stay thin. 

 

[00:33:16] Christina Phillips: You have to. 

 

[00:33:17] Shari Little: And they have, now they have to be very careful to not say, “We’re letting you go ’cause you are overweight.” So they will, they have to come up with another reason.

 

[00:33:26] Shari Little: But there’s all kinds of things that have happened legally with just even doing that. So- Well, yeah, there’s some- … yeah, it’s complicated. 

 

[00:33:33] Greg Calliste: Yeah. There, there are some states that say that, that, that have weight discrimination now. There’s N- Really? Yeah, like New York has a, has a weight discrimination, New York City, sorry, has a weight discrimination statute.

 

[00:33:44] Greg Calliste: So if being thin is a necessary part of your job- Mm … then it, it doesn’t, it might not create liability, but again, I just showed you there are, there are potential liability issues everywhere. So [00:34:00] don’t think that just, it’s just a weight thing. An attorney would be evaluating Everything under the umbrella 

 

[00:34:05] Shari Little: I think what they’re, what w- the way they’re getting around it now is they’re giving you time.

 

[00:34:11] Shari Little: Like, they’re giving you time to, if they say, “Listen, you need to lose some weight,” then they give you time to lose that weight. And then if you don’t lose it, then, uh- 

 

[00:34:19] Christina Phillips: Well, that’s, I guess, an improvement. 

 

[00:34:22] Shari Little: Yeah, it is. 

 

[00:34:23] Christina Phillips: That’s an improvement. 

 

[00:34:24] Shari Little: It 

 

[00:34:24] Christina Phillips: is. But it’s just, it’s just crazy when you are, you know… Your body is the focus of- Yes

 

[00:34:30] Christina Phillips: your job. And so to that end, when… And it’s typically, there are so few men in the field of ballet, however, they happen to become directors more often than females, it seems to me. And, and we know stories where the men really take advantage of that. So body or, you know, the comments and the, um, I mean, the things, the advances and who will act on the advances and then who will…

 

[00:34:59] Christina Phillips: [00:35:00] I’m not talking about your situation. I’m talking about more recent- Oh, yeah … stories that I’ve heard- Mm … where it’s still going on. If you meet the advances, you may get promoted or you may not. So, um- Mm … and that’s just something, I guess, that’s straight up sexual harassment, right? That’s- And that’s- 

 

[00:35:19] Greg Calliste: Or gender discrimination.

 

[00:35:20] Greg Calliste: You know, one or the other. Could be- 

 

[00:35:22] Christina Phillips: Oh, because, like, if there’s a male and a female up for directorship, and then- 

 

[00:35:26] Greg Calliste: That’s right. You treat the female differently than you do the male, for whatever reason, then you might have a gender discrimination claim there as well. 

 

[00:35:34] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Wow. That’s… Well, I guess we could probably get into a whole lot of different discriminations because there’s probably also race discrimination because of, you know, ballet and looking a certain, you know…

 

[00:35:44] Christina Phillips: I think that is changing though. I do- That has changed, right … I do feel like that has changed. Mm. When we were professionally dancing, it was a little bit different. So back then- Yeah, 

 

[00:35:52] Shari Little: that is changing dramatically, actually. 

 

[00:35:54] Christina Phillips: That’s great. That is really- Yeah … I’m so happy to hear that. Um- 

 

[00:35:57] Shari Little: That’s all in a real, that’s, uh, very positive.[00:36:00] 

 

[00:36:00] Christina Phillips: Well, at least there’s something good. It’s like, okay, they’re on track for something. If they could just get that- You still have to 

 

[00:36:04] Shari Little: be thin. You still ha- but it’s part of the job. I mean, you know that going into it, 

 

[00:36:08] Christina Phillips: so. You know it going in and, um, wow, this has absolutely been so… Thank you so much for sharing your story.

 

[00:36:13] Christina Phillips: It’s incredible. 

 

[00:36:14] Greg Calliste: Well, can I ask, were you ultimately able to go back into your, i- into dancing or no? 

 

[00:36:19] Shari Little: I had already retired. That’s another whole story. I had already retired from performing before this all happened. I was just working for the school at the time. Yeah. So it, I didn’t lose my dance career because of that.

 

[00:36:32] Shari Little: I, I was retire- I, I had retired already anyway, so. But I was worried about getting other jobs in the teaching field because I, I wasn’t a m- a massa- I’m also a licensed massage therapist, but I was not really doing much massage at the time, and I needed to teach to, to make a living for my son and I, so.

 

[00:36:51] Greg Calliste: Going to an attorney, uh, again

 

[00:36:56] Greg Calliste: We can, as part of represent- representing [00:37:00] you, if you think you’re being blacklisted, an attorney can help to un- not only undo those gag orders, but actually, um, as part of a negotiation in those situations, we can make the employer give you a good reference or- Right … not, um, blacklist you. And if there’s blacklisting going on there, then you have the defamation, if it’s a false thing that they’re saying or, or breach of contract, you’re able to hold them liable for saying anything bad about you or preventing you from getting a job in this big small industry.

 

[00:37:31] Greg Calliste: So again, go to an attorney. Yeah. 

 

[00:37:34] Christina Phillips: Oh, defamation’s not something I’ve even thought. I mean, that, that could’ve been the case in your 

 

[00:37:37] Shari Little: situation. I mean, I, I didn’t even consider asking for, uh, a 

 

[00:37:41] Christina Phillips: reference. A 

 

[00:37:41] Shari Little: reference from them. I j- I knew they wouldn’t give me one. 

 

[00:37:44] Greg Calliste: Well, that’s some- that’s something we s- we often negotiate, you know?

 

[00:37:47] Greg Calliste: Mm-hmm. We t- tell them, “Well, you definitely can’t say anything negative about my client, and if anyone calls for a reference, then you give them a neutral or positive reference.” Sometimes if they, if th- if their acts are egregious enough, then they’ll agree [00:38:00] that we’ll give her a glowing reference. We’ll even write a letter out for her and then we’ll- Mm-hmm

 

[00:38:04] Greg Calliste: you know, they’ll tell you who you can call. If, if, if anyone needs a reference, then you can call this guy and that guy and that guy, and we put that all in the contract to protect your rights from the back end, so. 

 

[00:38:13] Christina Phillips: Yeah, because it’s, the whole situation with being fired, now when you go to get another job, they’re gonna be like, “Why were you fired?”

 

[00:38:18] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. It’s just… And now what are you supposed to do? It’s 

 

[00:38:20] Shari Little: kind of a weird story to 

 

[00:38:21] Christina Phillips: tell also. Yeah, so. And, and how do you tell the story? Especially when you have a gag order. 

 

[00:38:24] Shari Little: Yeah. 

 

[00:38:24] Christina Phillips: Right? So. 

 

[00:38:25] Greg Calliste: And if you do tell the story, then they’ll, they’ll bl- they’ll blacklist you right there. Oh. Right. “Oh, sh- oh, she complained about th- oh.”

 

[00:38:31] Christina Phillips: We always say at the end of this your story’s a spark that lights the way for someone else, and in this situation, you know, knowing and hearing about this, you may just inspire somebody out there to s- either stop putting up with it. Call Greg. Right. 

 

[00:38:45] Shari Little: I was gonna say, I think the main thing that I took away from this is the, the situation with HR, which I didn’t realize.

 

[00:38:51] Shari Little: Like, the, the paper trail of speaking and getting the, getting your complaints to the HR department are, they’re gonna be kept, and you can use those [00:39:00] for, to benefit you. And the other thing for me is also, uh, knowing I could’ve just spoken to an attorney and somebody would’ve led me in the right, in, in some sort of direction to try to help me.

 

[00:39:11] Greg Calliste: Well, we definitely, definitely would have. Mm-hmm. For sure. 

 

[00:39:14] Christina Phillips: Yeah, for sure. I could imagine that you guys- You two would’ve definitely. This is a case you would’ve taken. 

 

[00:39:20] Greg Calliste: Would’ve hopped right on it. Hopped right on it. 

 

[00:39:22] Christina Phillips: Yeah. You had a relationship with your boss. Now it’s weird or worse. We get these stories all the time.

 

[00:39:30] Christina Phillips: Harassmenthelp.org gives you a way to ask, is this even illegal? And if it is, what can you do? Visit harassmenthelp.org for honest answers. So Shari, in your experience, I mean, I know, you know, I’ve had a… You pretty much stuck with ballet companies, right? 

 

[00:39:47] Shari Little: I did a lot of musical theater as well. 

 

[00:39:48] Christina Phillips: Oh, you did musical…

 

[00:39:48] Christina Phillips: I did musical theater as well. 

 

[00:39:50] Shari Little: Oh, yeah. That’s right. Yeah. I sang, I sang, you sang, like- 

 

[00:39:53] Christina Phillips: Film and TV, and I’ve, I have my fair share of stories, but since you’re here today, I’d love to get your share. What do you [00:40:00] think, um, what are some of the other things that you’ve seen in your experience that seem wrong, and probably are wrong?

 

[00:40:06] Christina Phillips: And we’ll get Craig’s take on it. 

 

[00:40:07] Shari Little: Well, I mean, there was a time in my life when I was in my 20s. Now, we’re talking back in the 1980s, right? So it was a long time ago. Everything was looked at very differently as far as men to women, and what was common for men to do, and what was acceptable. 

 

[00:40:23] Christina Phillips: But some people still use 

 

[00:40:24] Shari Little: that 

 

[00:40:24] Christina Phillips: excuse.

 

[00:40:24] Christina Phillips: Some people say, “Well, they’re old school,” and that’s 

 

[00:40:26] Shari Little: not an excuse. Oh, yeah. Well, you still hear it today that, “Well, that’s how men are. If you’re, if you wear a dress like that, you’re asking”- 

 

[00:40:32] Christina Phillips: Yeah … 

 

[00:40:32] Shari Little: for things.” Right? So at this time, I, you know, I was in my 20s. I had a great little body and, you know, s- was thin, but I, I, I had…

 

[00:40:42] Shari Little: Well, can I say that? I had boobs. 

 

[00:40:44] Christina Phillips: Go ahead. 

 

[00:40:44] Shari Little: You know. Yeah. Small breasts. I mean, 

 

[00:40:45] Christina Phillips: you know, we’re adults. 

 

[00:40:47] Shari Little: Okay. So the director at the time, um, I’m dancing. I didn’t have a bra on. He goes, “Oh, Shari, are you gonna do this to me? Like, you’re dancing without a bra.” You know, and kept [00:41:00] talking about it. Well, then I was like, “God, I d- I don’t have a bra with me.”

 

[00:41:03] Shari Little: I wanted to go put on like a, like something to really lock everything down. I mean, it was really uncomfortable. So things like that, that- 

 

[00:41:11] Christina Phillips: Yeah … things like that. Just pointing out things on, on your body. Yeah. I mean, they just feel sort of entitled to address your appearance in, in- Yes … so many, so many ways.

 

[00:41:22] Christina Phillips: Um- 

 

[00:41:22] Shari Little: Yes … 

 

[00:41:23] Christina Phillips: uh, and I mean, there is also, which is such a difference between this industry and every other industry. In the dance world, people will touch you very, very mu- I mean, I don’t know- Yes … if, you know… And how, you can’t even stop that. You can’t even, because you’re afraid of, you know, if you don’t do something, somebody else will do something.

 

[00:41:46] Christina Phillips: So like let’s just say somebody- Mm-hmm … goes to correct your body- Mm … and you’re not a toucher, and you’re like, “Please don’t,” you can’t say, “Please don’t. Please get your hands off of me” or something, ’cause there’s another person that, it’s cliche, but they’re waiting [00:42:00] in the wings- Yeah. Oh, yeah … ready to just take your- That’s true

 

[00:42:02] Christina Phillips: you know, you know. And so if you’re a problem, you know, you don’t want to be touched in any type of way, you’ll be. 

 

[00:42:08] Shari Little: And 

 

[00:42:09] Christina Phillips: we wanna be liked. You know, we wanna be the 

 

[00:42:10] Shari Little: favorite one. So we’re like, “Oh, well, he likes my bo-” You know, it’s, it’s a weird, distorted way of looking at yourself, which is all so abusive.

 

[00:42:20] Shari Little: It’s just… But that was common in the, in, in, during that time. 

 

[00:42:24] Christina Phillips: It was totally common for that to happen. So- But it hasn’t, like we were saying before, it hasn’t changed that dramatically, I don’t 

 

[00:42:30] Shari Little: think. I mean, I think, I think a lot of it has changed Quite a bit Do you? As far as touching, yeah. I don’t 

 

[00:42:37] Christina Phillips: think- Well, touching I think is a little 

 

[00:42:38] Shari Little: bit more- I think people don’t touch anymore.

 

[00:42:40] Christina Phillips: No? 

 

[00:42:40] Shari Little: I, I don’t know. I haven’t been a dancer for a long time, but I don’t, I don’t hear of stories like that. 

 

[00:42:46] Christina Phillips: But in, like, let’s just say you’re in an office setting, nobody’s touching right, right? Or, I mean, well, if they’re, they’re, if they’re touching you, they might be calling. Somebody might be- Yeah … calling Phillips and Associates.

 

[00:42:56] Shari Little: You’re right. In a dance word, world, like for me, I have to touch my stu- I have to [00:43:00] touch their feet. But I mean, there’s areas that you do not touch, you know? Then, then, then you, you’re, you’re legally doing stuff that’s just not ethical. So, you know, as a teacher, I know what I can do with a student and what I can’t do with a student that’s appropriate.

 

[00:43:14] Christina Phillips: Yeah. No, I mean, you know, if you’re the professional, then it is up to you- Yes … to just do the right thing and, you know, do the however you were trained properly. 

 

[00:43:22] Shari Little: Right. So, like, for, for us, I know as, at one point, like in, in, with a s- with a particular director, he used to love to go behind and, like, his hand was almost from the back on your breast.

 

[00:43:34] Shari Little: Mm-hmm. But he was acting like it was a correction, you know? And you’re just like, “Okay. Well, we’re dealing with that again.” You know, that’s just part of what we dealt with as dancers back, back in the day. 

 

[00:43:44] Greg Calliste: When, when it comes to, um, these, I would say the entertainment industry, but particularly things like dancing, ballet, um- Just any of these performance industries, um, a lot of these, uh, the talent [00:44:00] or the artists, if you will, think that the touching is just part of the game.

 

[00:44:04] Greg Calliste: Just so you… And just so you know, um, it’s, there is no industry in where touching you inappropriately is appropriate. Right. Even, even in the performance industry. Mm-hmm. So, if you feel like, uh, a touch or something else like that is inappropriate, most likely it, it is. Mm. Like, you go with your instinct and understand and, and then take appropriate action if it, if, if you can or if not.

 

[00:44:25] Greg Calliste: But there is no industry where it’s all right to touch you inappropriately anywhere. 

 

[00:44:29] Christina Phillips: Well, what about, um, how about, you know, since this industry is so different than an office setting, let’s just say, and your appearance is so crucial and your body is such a, I mean, your body is your instrument. Mm. What about the comments on your body?

 

[00:44:44] Christina Phillips: Um, how and when is it not okay? 

 

[00:44:48] Greg Calliste: Comments are, that’s kind of a slippery slope situation. With regard to sexual harassment or discrimination, um, it’s when the motives, the [00:45:00] motivation of the person that’s making the statement is, is something, is for something other than the job, or is to fulfill some sort of sexual gratification, or to demean you or humiliate you because of your body shape or your gender or, or whatever else they wanna make those comments for.

 

[00:45:18] Greg Calliste: So you kinda gotta figure it out and determine it while it’s going on, if it’s an appropriate statement based on f- for, for, like I said earlier, good faith business justification that is, or if it’s something to humiliate you, or something to ostracize you, or something to make you, make a example out of you to everybody else.

 

[00:45:36] Greg Calliste: Or you have to kinda look at the motives of the, of the statement being made, whether it’s appropriate for that situation, and then kinda figure out if it’s, if it’s something that should be said or shouldn’t. But there’s no, um, industry where even those kind of comments are appropriate. 

 

[00:45:52] Christina Phillips: Very good to know.

 

[00:45:52] Christina Phillips: I mean, I didn’t think so, but, you know, it, it, it is… It’s, it can, it can feel like a gray area in, [00:46:00] in the performing arts because, you know, you, like I said, it’s your instrument, so… But I guess with the motive of the person, I think you know when it’s appropriate, when it’s not appropriate. 

 

[00:46:12] Greg Calliste: Right. It is a gray area ’cause, uh, in these, uh, in these, especially in, like, dancing and ballet, the producers kinda have to be critical of you.

 

[00:46:21] Shari Little: Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah 

 

[00:46:23] Greg Calliste: That’s kind of their job 

 

[00:46:24] Shari Little: Yes. 

 

[00:46:25] Christina Phillips: That’s true. 

 

[00:46:26] Greg Calliste: But it doesn’t mean that they can abuse you. Mm. There’s a difference, and there’s a thin line between abuse and critic- critique. And you as the person that’s boots on the ground, so to speak, you gotta have to kind of figure that out as, as, as you’re going along.

 

[00:46:39] Greg Calliste: Um 

 

[00:46:40] Christina Phillips: Well, another industry I would think that this would fall in, uh, it would be a very big issue is, uh, the modeling industry. 

 

[00:46:45] Shari Little: Oh, yeah. 

 

[00:46:46] Christina Phillips: Yeah. That’s, I think a… That’s a separate episode too, uh, because that’s, you know, it’s all appearance based there. Yes. And it’s also you’re dealing with very young people, vulnerable people potentially, and, um, you know, that’s, uh, uh, [00:47:00] there are a lot of parallels, uh- Yeah

 

[00:47:01] Christina Phillips: with what we’re discussing here, so. 

 

[00:47:03] Greg Calliste: It becomes scarier in the modeling industry because there’s really no HR in modeling, in the modeling industry, period. Like, you’re on your own. Mm-hmm. So. 

 

[00:47:12] Christina Phillips: And how does that work, like, when you’re in a situation where, like, okay, a dancer has a contract, but a model is, I guess, what?

 

[00:47:19] Christina Phillips: An independent, like a 1099? 

 

[00:47:22] Greg Calliste: Most, most of the time, yeah. Mm-hmm. Most of the time. Unless you’re, like, on a company’s payroll. Like, there are some models that you consistently see. Like Ralph Lauren, for example, has models that they just kinda keep on their payroll for a while until they get tired of, of that, and then they move on to the next one.

 

[00:47:39] Greg Calliste: Um, but yeah, it, it, if you are a 1099 employee, you still have rights. Um, the rights aren’t much different than a W-9 employee when it comes to discrimination, that is. When it comes to other things such as pay and, um, pay workers’ rights and things like that, there are differences. But when it [00:48:00] comes to the, the, the topic we’re specifically talking about right now, it’s not much difference.

 

[00:48:05] Greg Calliste: Um, employers cannot treat 1099 employees different than they do W-2 employees for the purposes of body shaming- Mm-hmm … sexual harassment, um, discrimination in any form. 

 

[00:48:18] Christina Phillips: But the thing is with a, and, and this is true in dance and probably modeling as well, like, if you did speak up and you were blacklisted, that’s really hard to prove.

 

[00:48:26] Christina Phillips: I mean, how do you- 

 

[00:48:27] Greg Calliste: It is. It is. We often get calls, um, with people saying, “I was blacklisted because I made a complaint,” or something like that. And you s- and it’s a touchy, touchy subject ’cause we usually- Mm … the question is what proof do you have? Um, do you think that the person who the message was communicated to will come, will say something?

 

[00:48:48] Greg Calliste: Do you think maybe you can go back and ask them what was said or, you know? And usually the answer is no. So it’s like blacklisting, if you don’t get that on the spot, then sometimes it, that, that ship sails and you can’t ever get it [00:49:00] back. So that’s, it’s difficult. 

 

[00:49:02] Christina Phillips: Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s ti- it’s a, it can 

 

[00:49:03] Shari Little: be a tough situation.

 

[00:49:04] Shari Little: Do you 

 

[00:49:04] Greg Calliste: have- But if, but if you could get proof of it, then you’re g- oh my God, you’re golden, right? 

 

[00:49:10] Christina Phillips: Sherry’s story was, like, crazy, but we have a couple of more current stories that have been happening, you know, not 25 years ago. Uh, but some things haven’t really changed. And in this next story, an aspiring performer is cast in a small but high-profile project, and is told by the director that success in the industry depends on building personal relationships.

 

[00:49:30] Christina Phillips: He invites her to a private dinner to talk about the future roles, and tells her he only recommends performers he feels a real connection with. When she hesitates, he reminds her that casting decisions often come down to trust and chemistry, and that he’s helped launch a lot of careers. She leaves feeling like the invitation wasn’t really optional, but also worried that turning it down could mean losing future work.

 

[00:49:55] Christina Phillips: So is this, uh, like, a quid pro quo [00:50:00] situation? I mean, it’s tough to prove. 

 

[00:50:03] Greg Calliste: Well, it could be. Um, it, you know, just for those folks who aren’t aware, quid pro quo is when you, is, is a this for that. Um, uh, I’ll give you work if you give me something else. Usually it’s sexual in nature or something inappropriate that they’re asking for, and the question is whether it’s a quid pro quo, and it g- the answer is yes, it could be.

 

[00:50:22] Greg Calliste: Um, in this situation he’s saying, um, “I want that thing, and I’ll give you the thing, um, that you’re looking for if you give me that thing.” So that is quid pro quo. Uh, it can also be, I mean, sexual harassment has two different ways, main ways that you can prove sexual harassment. One is quid pro quo and one is, uh, like, a hostile work environment.

 

[00:50:43] Greg Calliste: So if you’re If, if for example, you don’t submit to the quid pro quo, but the quid pro quo continues to be pitched at you, or they continue to, um, over and over again suggest that you need to engage in these, uh, sort of acts in [00:51:00] order to get the job, or to get the position, or to g- you know, to, just to get benefits and the terms and conditions of your employment, then it could be a hostile work environment type of situation as well.

 

[00:51:10] Greg Calliste: This particular situation sounds like a quid pro quo though. Um, it sounds classic a la Weinstein situation. 

 

[00:51:16] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. I agree. And, uh, but the thing is, is that like, so if she leaves feeling like, “If I don’t do this, I’m not gonna get the job.” Mm-hmm. Um, you know, she’s n- not feeling like much choice, but so let’s say she doesn’t do it, so she doesn’t get the job.

 

[00:51:30] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. Um, can she go back and try to prove that it, she didn’t get it bec- you know, how, how can you prove it? 

 

[00:51:38] Greg Calliste: Well, um, I think the statements that was made to her kind of speak for themselves. Um, the statement was kinda clear. If, you know, these positions or whatever it is that she’s trying to get is kinda based on the relationships you build, and y- everybody knows what that means.

 

[00:51:58] Greg Calliste: And if, if in a situation she was [00:52:00] there, she was with the producer or whoever this person was, they seemed interested in her, they seemed like they wanted to give her the time, the attention, and you know, these people don’t have time to waste, right? So they’re not gonna sit there and spend time with you- Sure.

 

[00:52:12] Christina Phillips: That’s a good point. 

 

[00:52:12] Greg Calliste: Yeah … if, if they d- if they don’t intend to actually give you something. Mm-hmm. So in this situation if she didn’t get it- Um, th- then that seems like the appropriate time to check out an attorney’s office or to give a attorney a call to figure out if it is quid pro quo, if this- if it’s actionable.

 

[00:52:30] Greg Calliste: ‘Cause it seems like she was prevented from getting that position because she did not submit to the, the, the, even the subtle or overt sexual 

 

[00:52:41] Christina Phillips: Advances, overtones, or yeah … 

 

[00:52:43] Greg Calliste: the offers that was given. 

 

[00:52:44] Christina Phillips: I mean, you know, the thing is, is that like you said with the Weinstein we know goes on, and, uh, um, unfortunately it’s ha- it happens all too often, so.

 

[00:52:54] Greg Calliste: This situation kind of a got- kind of gotta be careful though because in this, the, the, the scenario that [00:53:00] I was just given it sounds like, um, her assumption was that she didn’t get it because of, um, her failure to submit to something. So it- it’s, it’s kind of, again, this is one of those situations you should go to an attorney and let an attorney, let an attorney determine if it’s a quid pro quo, what type of sexual harassment it is.

 

[00:53:20] Greg Calliste: It does sound like it’s inappropriate and so it s- it seems like a suitable situation to go to a lawyer. 

 

[00:53:25] Christina Phillips: Yeah. I mean, the other thing too is this, uh, this feels a little bit like coercion, and how subtle is… can coercion be to cross that line? 

 

[00:53:38] Greg Calliste: Anything that causes you to do something in response to s- a stimuli of something you were given, that’s coercion.

 

[00:53:45] Greg Calliste: So- 

 

[00:53:46] Shari Little: Okay … 

 

[00:53:46] Greg Calliste: um, in, in that situation if you made some sort of action or refused to make or declined to make action or anything, um, happening like that that, um, changes the way you act or changes what you would’ve done or [00:54:00] changes what you would’ve been given, anything like that. It could be subtle, it could be slight, or it could be just outright.

 

[00:54:05] Greg Calliste: Um, at that point it’s, it’s now they’re affecting the terms and conditions of the offer or of your employment based on this offer, this quid pro quo. So, um, I think that that pretty much… Subtleties are generally what- what’s- what happens in the workplace ’cause p- it’s very rare that someone will say, “Give it to me and I’ll- Mm-hmm

 

[00:54:27] Greg Calliste: give you the other thing.” They usually do it subtly, so sexual harassment is most of the time subtle. It’s a, it’s a subtle 

 

[00:54:35] Christina Phillips: Just little comments and the little, you know, not like, “Hey, come to my hotel so that we can-” Right … but like, “Come and, you know, let’s build a personal relationship.” And it’s an unspoken- 

 

[00:54:47] Greg Calliste: Right, which, but everybody kind of already knows what it is- Mm-hmm

 

[00:54:51] Greg Calliste: in that industry. It’s not like, you know, you go and you do a great performance, and we’ll give you the job. We know that, we know what you mean when you say, “Oh, these [00:55:00] relationships you build.” Right? Like, sometimes relationships that have nothing to do with your singing or your acting or your skills or your bala- you know, y- y- your able, your ability to do a plie, is it what they call it?

 

[00:55:00] Greg Calliste: Yeah. Plie, tendu. Yeah. Sometimes it has

 

[00:55:12] Greg Calliste: nothing, it has nothing to do with any of that, so you know what it is already off the bat. 

 

[00:55:16] Christina Phillips: W- so what makes proving this so difficult? 

 

[00:55:19] Greg Calliste: Most of the times it’s that the people doing, involved in a quid pro quo, um, are used to doing it or have done it so many times that they’re kind of experts at it, and they kinda know how to do it so to not, um, raise red flags, but to sorta make you do what they want you to do.

 

[00:55:37] Greg Calliste: So these things become, it becomes difficult because usually the person doing the quid pro quo knows that what they’re doing is illegal or could get them in trouble, so they do it in ways that kind of- 

 

[00:55:47] Christina Phillips: It’s a workaround … 

 

[00:55:48] Greg Calliste: yeah, it’s kind of a, they do it in a, in a gray area way to make you kind of figure out…

 

[00:55:54] Greg Calliste: Like, in other words, they’ll subtly tell you something so that you make the decision to [00:56:00] go. They don’t coerce you or pull your hands, but they’ll, you know, next thing you know, you’re knocking on his door saying, “Hey, Mr. Weinstein,” for example, you know, um, “About that thing you said.” Mm-hmm. Um, sure, you know, or whatever, you know, however you follow up with it.

 

[00:56:14] Greg Calliste: So these things become difficult to prove, yes, because sometimes the subtle- subtleties is a tactic that’s used so that you can’t prove it. 

 

[00:56:22] Christina Phillips: So you really have to know, okay, this is not okay. Uh, or like you had said earlier, I’m getting a feeling, because you think the motive is maybe, you know, sexual in nature- Exactly

 

[00:56:34] Christina Phillips: for example. When do you think that artistic critique crosses the line into harassment? Because it, it, it goes, it definitely goes on in performing arts and, you know, you have to accept the critique, but at a certain time, in, in my own personal experience- Mm … I was heavily critiqued by a female boss. Mm-hmm.

 

[00:56:56] Christina Phillips: Um, and it felt like harassment to me, but, you know, at the time I wouldn’t have said [00:57:00] anything, but today maybe I would, I would say, “Hey, this is too much.” 

 

[00:57:04] Greg Calliste: So narrow harassment is essentially, um Sexual harassment and not all harassment is unlawful in the workplace. If you have a mean boss or someone who critiques you v- uh, uh, harshly or unfairly it even seems, and it doesn’t necessarily make it unlawful until there’s a quid pro quo, until that thing creates a s- a hostile work environment, and that’s essentially what it means when you, when you say when does it cro- when you cross the line when you are…

 

[00:57:36] Greg Calliste: I mean, first of all, with regard to comments about people’s bodies, um, body shaming and things like that, um, you’re doing that because of their characteristics is, is why you’re doing it, not because you wanna get a better outcome with regard to the performance, but you’re doing it because of their characteristics, because they’re a woman, you, um, because you wanna make them submit to you sexually or because you want them to do something [00:58:00] inappropriate.

 

[00:58:00] Greg Calliste: That’s when it starts to cross the line, um, when you’re making critiques because you wanna make the show better. Um, it also becomes a slippery slope, um, when you say s- one thing to a female, um, let’s say a female actress, uh, actor, but you don’t say the same thing to a male actor. You don’t treat them equally.

 

[00:58:21] Greg Calliste: You kind of p- treat the females this way. You body shame the females, but you have a, a, a, a a- a male actor who has a little jelly roll here, but you don’t say anything about his jelly roll, but you’re talking about her, you know. It, it, it… Discrimination takes different forms. So, you know, it’s the, the… A lot of times it’s, it’s, it does really take an attorney or someone with a legally trained mind to figure out when the, when the line is crossed, so.

 

[00:58:44] Christina Phillips: So again, it’s placing that call. Placing that call to you and, uh, letting you be the judge of, okay, this is crossing a line, this is not crossing a line. 

 

[00:58:51] Greg Calliste: Right. And it’s important to kind of do that while, uh, shortly after the line is crossed. Um, so that you can figure out what your rights are. An attorney [00:59:00] might send you back into the workplace and say, “Hey,” like we were just talking about a moment ago, “Get it, get that on tape if they’re gonna do that.

 

[00:59:06] Greg Calliste: Like, let them say it again and tape it this time, you know?” Mm-hmm. So it’s not a he say, she say situation. You wanna take legal action against them. Sometimes they crossed the line already, but you know that they’ll do it again. Mm-hmm. And you send them back and you say, “Hey, this time go in there with your iPhone ready, and when it starts, tape it.”

 

[00:59:23] Greg Calliste: So that, you know, um, it’s, it’s always a good idea to get an attorney, a legal mind, someone with that sort of training to figure it out for, to help you figure it out when the line is crossed. 

 

[00:59:33] Christina Phillips: You know, I think that sometimes in my experience, it having come from this world, it’s, it’s all about the art.

 

[00:59:40] Christina Phillips: It’s all about the performance. It’s all about, you know, just making it better, wanting to have the best thing out there, the best show. And I mean, I’ve been in super high level things, but i- is art a defense? I mean, I know ignorance isn’t a defense, right? So is art… Well, no, we just wanted to… This is a high [01:00:00] pressure situation.

 

[01:00:01] Christina Phillips: Everybody’s getting critiqued or, you know. What would you say to that? 

 

[01:00:05] Greg Calliste: Well, re- well, just like I said a moment ago, um, if you treat one person different than the other one, um, because of their characteristics, and by the way, we know that there’s different charac- there’s more than just gender or sex.

 

[01:00:19] Greg Calliste: There’s disability, there’s race, there’s, you know, also a whole b- a whole bunch of categories that you can kind of analyze to figure out if it’s, um, if, if it’s art or if it’s harassment. Um, sometimes, uh, a producer is hired for his style, for his alleged critiques, for his, the way he approaches the, you know, these artists and things like that.

 

[01:00:41] Greg Calliste: But he still has to be trained, right? The, uh, a producer should be trained or supervised or instructed. They should be, they should get the employment manual just like everybody else, and then they should get the, the collective bargaining agreement if there’s a union involved, and they should understand what is inappropriate under the, under the guidelines.

 

[01:00:59] Greg Calliste: [01:01:00] So you can’t rely on your art or to say, or my style, if it violates policies or if it violates the laws. Like, you know, you can be a harsh producer, but you can’t be a discriminatory and a harsh producer. 

 

[01:01:15] Christina Phillips: If someone in the entertainment industry is experiencing sexual harassment, what should they do? 

 

[01:01:22] Greg Calliste: A number of things.

 

[01:01:23] Greg Calliste: Um, number one is you should, i- insofar as you’re not, um, intimidated in doing so, you should make a record of it i- in the workplace, which means a record of it might be making a complaint to HR or just anyone above you in the chain of command. Like, you could have told a supervisor, “Listen, I’m feeling uncomfortable based on something that happened to me, and this is what it is.”

 

[01:01:48] Greg Calliste: Because most workplaces, the supervisors has an obligation or a duty to either document it or to report it up the chain. So you can do that. Other things you can do is you can obviously go to HR. [01:02:00] Um, most of these places have, m- you know, employee workbooks or manuals or something. Even in, even in artistic situations, you’re part of a union.

 

[01:02:09] Greg Calliste: A lot of these places are unionized, and there’s a collective bargaining agreement that kinda defines what you can do, how you can make complaints or whatever. You can complain to your union. That’s documentation. Um, your union is supposed to do things on your, on, on y- your behalf, but we know that that doesn’t always happen.

 

[01:02:25] Greg Calliste: Most of the times unions sorry to say, are defunct or they don’t really help you the way you feel you should be helped. Um, some- and th- the things you can do internally with yourself, like if you’re kind of intimidated or scared, or you don’t really even, even, even know if it’s discrimination or not, or if it’s wrongful, you can start documenting it yourself in a little journal, naming the date and the time and, um, that this happens because contemporaneous notes that you take about situations happen- happening tend to be reliable in court.

 

[01:02:58] Greg Calliste: They tend to be relied on a lot. [01:03:00] So you keeping your own little documents, your own little journal about what happened on this day, at this time, and who was involved and who was present. So you keeping your little documentation about it is, is also an important tool that you can use. Um, but I would say, um, also complaining, even complaining to a work- to a coworker or someone else in, you know, who, who’s, um, in that workplace with you is good, is a good idea as well because at least you will have a witness saying, “Oh, well, while these things were happening, I was talking to sh- to A, B, or C.”

 

[01:03:32] Greg Calliste: You can also talk to people who aren’t there, um, like pastors or a psychiatrist if you’re, if you’re in counseling, your doctor, so that later on down the line when you make the complaint or if you make the complaint, um, y- you– the question will be a- asked, “Who did you speak to?” And you could say, “I spoke to ladi, dadi, and everybody.”

 

[01:03:52] Greg Calliste: Mm-hmm. And then now you have witnesses, um, all throughout who could say, “Oh yeah, she did, she did mention that. Oh yeah, she mentioned that in, [01:04:00] um, in, in a pastoral counseling service. Oh yeah, she mentioned that in the, um, in the, in the treatment room. Oh yeah, oh yeah, she actually did mention that at the dinner table,” y- you, you complaining to your mother or to someone, and you just have witnesses now who understand or who you can use to say that at specific times during the event, even though I didn’t complain to HR, I didn’t complain to management, I did start mentioning to these people that stuff was going on because I kind of felt intimidated or what for whatever reason it could be used for.

 

[01:04:31] Greg Calliste: You start building your witness base and your evidence by documenting, even if it’s to yourself journaling or complaining to family members or people who can… who you believe will later on come and support you because sometimes you complain to folks and then they say, “Oh, well that never happened.” Right?

 

[01:04:48] Greg Calliste: So you wanna complain to the right people 

 

[01:04:50] Christina Phillips: Especially if they’re, if they’re in the job, right? I mean, they may not wanna for fear of speaking out. 

 

[01:04:54] Greg Calliste: That’s exactly right. You know, sometimes you complain to your coworkers and they wanna keep their jobs after you lost [01:05:00] yours, so they’re not coming forward for you.

 

[01:05:02] Greg Calliste: That person’s kind of futile to, to make a complaint to. 

 

[01:05:05] Christina Phillips: This episode has been great. It’s been so informative, and as I mentioned earlier, a lot of times there are not newsletters in show business or these industries of performance. Um, and I think if there were, what’s not gonna be in that newsletter is when your next job depends on one person, saying no doesn’t feel like a real option.

 

[01:05:24] Christina Phillips: Thank you again for being here. I know I’m happy that you took a little time out of your day to spend with us, a lot of time, and, uh, it was so helpful and so informative, and I’m sure Shari took away so much with it, and I certainly did too, so I really appreciate you being here. 

 

[01:05:38] Greg Calliste: Thank you. It was a pleasure.

 

[01:05:41] Christina Phillips: Found this useful? Connect with us on LinkedIn. If you’ve got a follow-up question or a scenario you want covered, send us a message. You can grab the link in the episode description. Remember, your story is a spark that lights the way for someone else. See you next time