The Real Reason Women Still Don’t Report Sexual Harassment

[00:00:00] Deirdre Arato: My boss just, you know, rubbed up against me and said, “You need to be made love to.” Like, what?” I mean, women get fired.

[00:00:04] Dorina Cela: Again, they get demoted. They get put in different positions. The harasser is not moved. You know, the woman who’s being harassed is moved. And why? The companies are going to protect the ones who are making the most money.

[00:00:17] Dorina Cela: Because whether you complain or you don’t complain, whether you do it alone or you do it with others, you are strong. 

[00:00:23] Deirdre Arato: Women feel they know something’s wrong, but they can’t afford to be wrong because it’s their livelihood. So what should she do?

[00:00:36] Deirdre Arato: Before we get into the stories, I want to zoom out for a second. Why do so many women hesitate to speak up even when something feels off? It’s such a great 

[00:00:45] Dorina Cela: question, and we all ask each other and ourselves that question, right? There’s so many reasons why. First, it’s, in my opinion, the way that our roles were and still are defined in [00:01:00] society, right?

[00:01:01] Dorina Cela: You know, we are expected to be amiable by nature, you know? If we stand up for ourselves, now all of a sudden we’re aggressive, we’re bossy, uh, you know, we’re difficult. Um, so it’s about trying to keep our places that we worked so hard to get in the workplace- Sure … while being so very mindful of the way that we will be perceived, and it’s not fair.

[00:01:32] Dorina Cela: Mm-hmm. That’s one reason. The other reason is what happens around us and the consequences that come with complaining. In an ideal world, we speak up, nothing happens. The people that we speak up and complain to do the right thing. The situations are resolved. That’s it. End of story. That’s not the real world, right?

[00:01:53] Dorina Cela: Mm-hmm. In the real world, there’s consequences for complaining. I see, doing what I do, on a regular basis, [00:02:00] you know, women, women speak up and they’re punished. They’re demoted. They’re ostracized. There’s microaggressions. They speak up on behalf of others, the same exact thing happens. And it’s not easy to do that when you see to complain, when you see that there’s consequences that are not beneficial for you in the long run.

[00:02:18] Dorina Cela: It doesn’t mean that you are comfortable with what’s happening. Right. It doesn’t mean that you’re not suffering because of what’s happening. It means that you are assessing what the consequences are going to be once you make that decision to complain. Um, it’s just very difficult. 

[00:02:36] Deirdre Arato: Right. Right. Is that what you’re seeing in your practice as well?

[00:02:38] Deirdre Arato: Ab- absolutely. So what I’m hearing just it, it aligns perfectly with what you were saying in that women feel they know something’s wrong But they can’t afford to be wrong. Mm-hmm. Because it’s their livelihood. Absolutely. And like you were saying, it’s the consequences. Mm-hmm. So they rather blow up their own life- Mm-hmm

[00:02:59] Deirdre Arato: [00:03:00] than blow up the harasser’s life. So that, that’s, that paralysis is really, it, it’s, it’s silencing. Mm-hmm. But, and they carry that, and, and that’s the issue, the consequences. 

[00:03:13] Dorina Cela: Absolutely, and they’re very real. I mean, women get fired. Again, they get demoted. Uh, they get put in different positions. The harasser is not moved, you know, the woman who’s being harassed is moved, and why?

[00:03:24] Dorina Cela: Mm-hmm. Moved to a different position because we’re tr- we’re trying to help you out while we do this investigation. Right. No, you’re not helping me out. Mm-hmm. You know, there’s consequences to being, me being moved now. Mm-hmm. You know, opportunities change, job responsibilities and duties change, so it’s not fair that this is happening to the person who’s on the right side of things and is complaining to address things not for her own benefit only- Right

[00:03:47] Dorina Cela: but for the benefit of those others who are also subjected to sexual harassment, a lot of times by the same exact individual. 

[00:03:55] Deirdre Arato: Right. Mm-hmm. And that’s very true. That top producer, high performer, [00:04:00] you know, HR may not wanna do anything about that. Absolutely, because they’re beneficial to 

[00:04:04] Dorina Cela: the business- Mm-hmm

[00:04:05] Dorina Cela: and that’s just not okay. Right. Yeah, that’s, um… 

[00:04:08] Deirdre Arato: And is it against the law? I mean, it’s… What is the law with sexual harassment? I mean, what’s- 

[00:04:14] Dorina Cela: There are protections in place for employees both at the federal level, the New York, and the New- New York State and New York City level, right? So there’s protections in the workplace, um, to make sure that employees who are subjected to this ki- kind of conduct can move forward with respect to what’s happening to them.

[00:04:38] Dorina Cela: Mm-hmm. And if they complain about what’s happening to them, there’s protections, um, so that they are not retaliated against for speaking up- Mm-hmm … for bringing to higher-ups, uh, attention that harassment is happening not just to them, but to others as well. Mm-hmm. Wrong way. So the [00:05:00] protections are there.

[00:05:01] Dorina Cela: They are in place. There’s trainings that should be happening in the workplace on a yearly b- a yearly basis in the state of New York. Mm-hmm. So employees should be informed. And it’s not so much about whether they are informed, it’s about even when they are informed, what can they do with that information?

[00:05:20] Dorina Cela: What can they do with what they know? Because again, all around us, we’re seeing the same exact thing happening. We have a friend who complains, you know, they get terminated. We have another fr- friend who complains, they get demoted. You know, we have a fl- a friend who complains, now they’re being seen as the, as a difficult person- Right

[00:05:36] Dorina Cela: in the workplace. Yeah. Uh, but there- It’s 

[00:05:38] Deirdre Arato: risky, right? Yeah, it’s risky. It’s risky for women to speak up. Risky. 

[00:05:41] Dorina Cela: But also in terms of knowing- What your rights are. If you know that it’s not right and your gut feeling is telling you it’s not right, trust that gut feeling and make sure that you speak up, right?

[00:05:54] Dorina Cela: Because if it’s making you uncomfortable, if y- it’s unwelcomed, if it’s unwanted, [00:06:00] if you know as a woman, right, in your heart of hearts that what’s happening is just not okay for you, speak up. Say something, but do it to the person that makes you feel comfortable first, and make sure that you have the right resources to do it.

[00:06:15] Dorina Cela: Right. 

[00:06:15] Deirdre Arato: And protect yourself. But this is where I see women struggle with when they’re in therapy. Yeah. They know. Mm-hmm. Most of them mo- s- I, I shouldn’t say most, but there are women who know that this is wrong. 

[00:06:27] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. But 

[00:06:28] Deirdre Arato: again, it is just not worth the headache. Mm-hmm. That’s what I hear. 

[00:06:33] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. It 

[00:06:33] Deirdre Arato: is not worth it.

[00:06:35] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. I’d 

[00:06:35] Deirdre Arato: rather just, you know, keep my head down- Yeah … shut up, and just like deal with it. But again, the long-term 

[00:06:41] Dorina Cela: consequences of being quiet. Absolutely. And again, it’s going back to what we were talking about, is balancing out. You know, do you wanna do this? Do you wanna speak up and then face all the consequences that come with that?

[00:06:53] Dorina Cela: Or do you want to stay silent, essentially, and suffer through it? And it’s about making that choice. 

[00:06:59] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. Um- [00:07:00] Which is the lesser of the evils? Which is the- Yes, exactly … yeah, exactly, the 

[00:07:03] Dorina Cela: lesser of two evils. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I’d like to believe, and I, I, I probably sound too naive saying this, especially as an employment discrimination attorney, but that there are workplaces where the HR department does the right thing, where high management, you know, does the right thing.

[00:07:18] Dorina Cela: Sometimes it happens. A lot of the times it does not. Yes. So the question a lot of times comes up, you know, if I’m supposed to complain to somebody, who am I gonna complain to? Because I saw how HR treated this other situation. Right, right, right. I saw how my boss stopped talking to my friend at work when, you know, my friend complained, and that’s what makes it very difficult.

[00:07:39] Dorina Cela: Um, but it’s always worth trying to make that step. I know it’s uncomfortable. I know it’s very difficult. It doesn’t make you less strong as a woman. Mm-hmm. It just makes you more cautious, because that’s just the world that we live in, right? Yeah. But seek outside help. Talk to a therapist. You know, [00:08:00] see what makes you comfortable in terms of moving forward.

[00:08:02] Dorina Cela: Talk to an attorney. See what your options are. And that way you can do it with the right help. And talk to the people around you. Talk to your friends. Talk to your family. Talk to your coworkers. But share this with someone so that you have a sounding board, and you have someone who can come back to you and say, “All right, let’s talk about options, and let’s talk about what we can potentially do moving forward together.”

[00:08:25] Deirdre Arato: Now, let me ask you what might be- Yeah … a stupid question. But- Let’s- … say your coworkers notice what’s going on. Mm-hmm. And let’s say I’m the one that’s being sexually harassed, and I decide to pursue it. And I come to you. You’re my attorney. Mm-hmm. And I say, “This is happening, this is happening.” Do, can I use any of those people as witnesses?

[00:08:44] Deirdre Arato: It depends. Is 

[00:08:47] Dorina Cela: the lawyer answer we always get. Uh, it depends on whether they are willing to talk to you, you know? Mm-hmm. It depends on, uh, what their position within the company [00:09:00] is. Sometimes it’s difficult for someone who’s in a supervisory position to engage. There’s legal implications- Mm-hmm … that come with that.

[00:09:07] Dorina Cela: Um, it depends on whe- whether they’re still working for the employer. Mm-hmm. Uh, but again, in an ideal world, that person would be supportive of your story. And, you know, in a situation when a case is filed in a court of law, those individuals would be subpoenaed to testify. Oh, okay. Um, you know, and, and expected- To come lie.

[00:09:26] Dorina Cela: In an ideal world- To come lie. … testify truthfully about- Yeah … you know, what’s happened to you as well as sometimes to them. Right. Which, again, is not easy to do, but there are protections that go with that. 

[00:09:37] Deirdre Arato: So do you see in your practice that if somebody is harassing one person, it’s sort of pervasive, that they may have had a pattern of doing this?

[00:09:45] Dorina Cela: Sometimes, yes. Yes. Absolutely. And again, it’s the same individual, nothing’s been done about it, and they do it again. And what I’ve seen in my practice as well, and I would love to hear your opinion on this- Mm-hmm … um, is women [00:10:00] usually who have been harassed, sexually harassed in the past, who have traumatic experiences, you know, from their past, and they sometimes fall in that same cycle of abuse.

[00:10:11] Dorina Cela: So sometimes it’s very difficult for them to come out of that cycle, and they’re questioning themselves or questioning whether, you know, they should speak up, whether what’s happening, you know, is actually harassment, and they really struggle. You know- Mm-hmm … they have that internal dialogue, and they really struggle because they were treated really horribly in the past, and they haven’t had an opportunity to treat with someone, um, you know, a therapist is what I’m saying now specifically, uh, and to get the type of help that will empower them to understand themselves better and to understand their options better.

[00:10:43] Dorina Cela: So do you see that in, in your practice, that it’s s- a lot of the time it’s going through that cycle of, that same cycle of abuse? It’s social conditioning. Yeah. 

[00:10:53] Deirdre Arato: Right? So as women, you, you grow up- Mm-hmm … and you are w- whistled at in the [00:11:00] street. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Cat calls. Yeah. You know, oh, oh, oh, you look really nice today.

[00:11:04] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. Like, those little comments, those subtle comments that for me personally- I didn’t think it was a big deal. Right. I didn’t. Mm-hmm. So over time, like, I just accept it as of the norm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? And so how many of us accept the dysfunction as normal? Mm-hmm. That’s true. Absolutely. So that’s where, you know, when women, women are coming to me and, you know, “Oh, it’s not that big of a deal.”

[00:11:28] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. Like, “My boss just, you know, rubbed up against me and said, ‘You need to be made love to.’” Like, what? Awful. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh. Like, yeah. You know? And, and, and unfortunately, a woman will set- will brush it off. Like, “Ugh,” like, “Get off of me.” Like that. Yeah. And it’s that, like, subtle- Mm … experience that they, you know, that’s the moment, the pivotal moment where it’s like you just crossed the line.

[00:11:52] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. Yeah. But h- so many women- Mm-hmm … just brush it off. 

[00:11:56] Dorina Cela: I see that, you know, and again, it goes back to what we’re [00:12:00] talking about, the other side of, you know, living in the world where you’ve complained and now you’re dealing with everything that comes with that. Uh, but I also have clients who’ve gone through a lot of trauma in the past, and they freeze.

[00:12:12] Dorina Cela: It’s very difficult for them to deal with the harassment because it’s triggering- Yeah … what happened to them in the past, right? So it’s very difficult for them to respond to the harassment, period. You know, and some of the people who are subjecting them to harassment know about their background because, you know, there’s grooming- Mm

[00:12:35] Dorina Cela: sometimes. You know, they learn about their background, they learn about who they are. There’s power- Mm-hmm … uh, dynamics. There is, you know, age gaps- Mm-hmm … et cetera, where the perpetrator is in the position where they observe, you know, this particular person. They groom them, they learn about them, and then they go in.

[00:12:54] Dorina Cela: Um, and it’s very difficult for them to figure out how to address it because, again, [00:13:00] it’s triggering and it brings up all of the- Right … conditioning to a degree that you’re talking about. 

[00:13:04] Deirdre Arato: That’s not something I ever even thought about, that maybe- Right … somebody has a tra- traumatic past and now they’re not gonna advocate for themselves.

[00:13:12] Deirdre Arato: Because I can understand, you know, you don’t wanna lose your job. You have bills to pay. What are you going to do? Will you be able to get another job? But that’s a whole added layer- Absolutely … of trauma. 

[00:13:22] Dorina Cela: Mm. It’s extremely traumatic. And, you know, in our field, when there is legal action in place, because we’re in the civil world- Mm

[00:13:31] Dorina Cela: um, the way that a person is compensated for what they went through is by way of money, right? It’s monetary compensation. And there’s different buckets of damages. Uh, there’s lost wages when the person is, you know, demoted or terminated, et cetera. There is emotional distress damages and others. So focusing on emotional distress damages, this is why we’re exposed to, um, their background [00:14:00] because- Um, some of the clients have treatment for the emotional distress that they suffer.

[00:14:05] Dorina Cela: Mm. And that’s where you see the background of what’s happened to them in the past. Um, my point in saying all of this, though, is to say that it’s extremely difficult for someone who has this past trauma- Yeah … to now be subjected to sexual harassment in the workplace- Mm-hmm … where there’s so much at stake, right?

[00:14:26] Dorina Cela: And figure out how to deal with it. So I would just encourage women, whoever goes through sexual harassment, you know, all of you wonderful people out there who are in difficult situations, reach out for help to the right people so that you’re not doing this alone, because I can completely understand on a human na- on a human level how difficult it is.

[00:14:50] Dorina Cela: You know, talk to a therapist, reach out to a lawyer so that you can get your options straight, and then you can figure out what you wanna do. It’s not easy. [00:15:00] It’s very devastating. It is. Now you’re having to deal with working, figuring out how to handle your trauma, 

[00:15:07] Deirdre Arato: um- And your livelihood, like you said. And livelihood, sure.

[00:15:08] Deirdre Arato: That’s a tough- But to that end as well, I mean, I think a lot of people fear calling an attorney ’cause they’re like, “Well, if I’m about to quit my job or be fired, I won’t be able to pay the attorney.” How, how did you, um, employment discrimination attorney, do they all work the same? Is 

[00:15:23] Dorina Cela: it all- Sure … uh- So for my firm specifically, Phillips and Associates, you know, where I’m a partner, we work on a contingency basis, and a lot of employee, um, side firms handle cases similarly on a contingency basis.

[00:15:38] Dorina Cela: There is firms where, you know, people would have to pay up front. Mm-hmm. But there’s options out there. You know, there is the option of also contacting government agencies to file complaints. There is the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. There is the New York State Division of Human Rights, the New York City Commission on Human Rights.

[00:15:54] Dorina Cela: So there’s options out there, um, to reach out and, you know, move forward with [00:16:00] action, to reach out and seek help. My point to all of this is to say that if you’re going through this, just know that there’s options and you are not alone, because what you’re going through is very- Isolating, yeah. And- Difficult.

[00:16:12] Dorina Cela: And it’s very isolating. But- 

[00:16:14] Deirdre Arato: Well, that’s super helpful to know, because I know somebody close to me who went through something and was very afraid to call. 

[00:16:21] Dorina Cela: Absolutely. 

[00:16:22] Deirdre Arato: Um, because they were like, “Well, you know, how much is that gonna cost?” Yeah. And so on and so forth. And so I didn’t realize that there were also government agencies in place- Absolutely

[00:16:31] Deirdre Arato: to help with that. 

[00:16:32] Dorina Cela: There’s many options. It’s just about educating yourself, you know, seeking help, and ta- Start, if it’s uncomfortable to talk to the professionals, start talking to someone who’s close to you. Talk to a friend, talk to a family member, talk to a trusted coworker, but speak to someone. Mm-hmm.

[00:16:48] Dorina Cela: And it’s okay to do that. We all need each other. You know, it’s not possible to do this alone. This is why we’re here together right now. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, no. It’s great. 

[00:16:59] Deirdre Arato: We have a [00:17:00] story from a woman in medical training. She’s being harassed by a senior physician, someone who outranks her. Late night messages, emotional manipulation, and inappropriate comments that cross every professional boundary.

[00:17:13] Deirdre Arato: She’s ready to report it until she’s told her name has to be attached to the complaint, and he’ll see it. Now she’s torn between protecting herself and protecting the career she spent years building. So what should she do? Well, the issue is, is that her livelihood is attached to the situation, and it’s the fear of, “What’s gonna happen to me?”

[00:17:33] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. “How am I gonna support myself? How am I going to support my family?” Because it’s really institutional betrayal. Mm. They don’t trust the very system that’s there to protect them. 

[00:17:43] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:44] Deirdre Arato: So that’s really at the root of it. It’s the fear of, “What’s going to happen to me next if I open this can of worms?”

[00:17:50] Deirdre Arato: Right. Right. So- Backlash … I, I should say. You know, maybe if she’s in therapy, you, if you’re the therapist, you can sort of empower her to [00:18:00] say, “You’ve gotta speak up. You’ve gotta look for another job.” Well, I won’t give that, I won’t give that directive. Mm-hmm. I’ll just try to give the, the person the tools necessary for them to make their own decision.

[00:18:13] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. Because they have to live with the repercussions. Right. Right. So sometimes for women, that stress in itself, by speaking up, for them, it’s just not worth it, and that’s where it, it’s so sad. Wow. So, Zarina, what would you say from the legal perspective? 

[00:18:30] Dorina Cela: Absolutely, and you’re making such a good point, right?

[00:18:33] Dorina Cela: It’s about empowering them to have the tools to make their own decisions. Because at the end of the day, you know, we can provide the advice, right? But this is this person- Personal life … who’s gonna have to- They have to live it … they have to live it. Yeah. They have. They have to go through what’s gonna happen next.

[00:18:50] Dorina Cela: But I do find, again, that when you’re with someone else through this process, whether it’s a therapist, an attorney, whether you have [00:19:00] someone who’s trusted at work, doesn’t happen very often, but in management and they’re- Right … willing to help, you know, it just makes it easier. But I can completely understand why, you know- Being required to put your name on this complaint makes it so very difficult because you- Well, I was gonna ask, not to interrupt you- Yeah, no, please

[00:19:17] Dorina Cela: but, like, do, in, in most complaints, do you have to put your name on it? It really all depends. It depends on the company. It depends on how they wanna do the investigation. You know, an employee can always say, “Look, you know, I’m very uncomfortable doing this, and I’m really concerned about the consequences to me, you know?

[00:19:33] Dorina Cela: I wanna make sure that if I’m doing this and I’m open about who I am, my identity, you know, I’m protected from retaliation.” There’s all sorts of things that, you know, you can talk about and you can say- Mm-hmm … to try to protect yourself, but at the end of the day, it’s gonna come down to what are they going to do about it, right?

[00:19:50] Dorina Cela: Are they gonna now see you as the problem, or are they going to take this very seriously and say, “We have a problematic individual in our hands. [00:20:00] You know, this is what they’re doing. They’re doing it now. They’re most likely gonna do it again.” Even if they only do it once, it doesn’t matter. It’s horrible.

[00:20:07] Dorina Cela: It’s terrible. This shouldn’t be happening to this person, again, on a human level period, but also, it’s a liability for the company, and that’s the part that really gets to me as an attorney. You know, I’ve been doing this for a very long time, and while a company, you’re, you’re thinking about it conceptually, this is an entity, right?

[00:20:25] Dorina Cela: Mm-hmm. You know, it’s a thing. It’s made of people, right? So as people running this business, don’t you understand, you know- Yeah … when you sit down and make decisions that it’s going to come back to you, and it’s going to affect you at the end of the day? ‘Cause ideally, again, we’re talking about what’s realistic and what’s, you know- Mm-hmm

[00:20:42] Dorina Cela: ideally the best case scenario, um, o- on a human level, you would want to just help this person because what if you were in their position? Try to put yourself in their shoes. Yeah, they’re suffering. I mean, they- Right, but the issue- … how can they do their job? But that’s, but the- But they have to … but that’s not [00:21:00] reality because they’re trying to think about the business.

[00:21:01] Dorina Cela: You know, if this person- Yeah … complained once- One year … they’re gonna complain again, uh, 

[00:21:05] Deirdre Arato: et cetera, et cetera, so. But by the flip side of that, the harasser, if he did it once, he’s gonna do it again, and that’s gonna, that could end up costing that company quite a bit of money- Absolutely … if he’s found to be- Absolutely

[00:21:16] Deirdre Arato: you know, responsible, uh, this is- But also it goes back to, this goes back to what I was saying earlier, that it’s like that institutional betrayal. You know, the companies are going to protect the ones who are making the most money. 

[00:21:26] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:26] Deirdre Arato: So if you get into that power dyme- dynamic where I have clients that are maybe in a, a, a, in a minute, like an exce- secretarial level, and they have- Mm-hmm

[00:21:35] Deirdre Arato: people higher than them- Mm-hmm … that power dynamic in itself is going to be terrifying. So it’s so much easier for them to get rid of me than for the, for them to get rid of, you know- Absolutely … this person. 

[00:21:47] Dorina Cela: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:48] Deirdre Arato: So, you know, again, it’s like it, another example of how women are made to me felt so small.

[00:21:54] Deirdre Arato: No, but, like, and, and the reality of it, like, let’s just say hypothetically, okay, this person, she [00:22:00] doesn’t want her name attached to it. She stays. It, it keeps going. Let’s say she leaves, and now she can’t get another job. Mm-hmm. I mean, what 

[00:22:08] Dorina Cela: ha- you know. And I have clients in that situation, and that’s another, uh, you know, consideration when it comes to the consequences that we’re talking about.

[00:22:16] Dorina Cela: You know, if it’s so difficult because you’re on a particular path in your career to switch onto another path now because it’s so difficult to get another job in your field, 

[00:22:28] Deirdre Arato: what are you going to do? No, but how do you even explain that? How do you even explain to your next employer, “Well, I was only there for six months.”

[00:22:36] Dorina Cela: Yeah. I, I, I mean, you know, that’s a real issue. Most people don’t because what are you gonna say, right? Yeah. Again, you’re going in, you’re trying to start fresh, and what you’re gonna tell them that, you know, “I’m the person who spoke up”? It’s going to be a very special employer who really appreciates the fact that there is this person coming in, and they have this type of strength.

[00:22:57] Dorina Cela: They’re willing to speak up. You know, they’re willing to fight back [00:23:00] and see that as an asset. Because the person who is not afraid to speak up, who is afraid to speak up but does it anyway- Mm-hmm … right, is going to be an asset for your company because they have those qualities of leadership- Mm-hmm … of, you know, strength.

[00:23:16] Dorina Cela: And you’re going to benefit from them in many, many ways. But at the end of the day, again, that’s not what the employers, a lot of the time, in what I do anyway, you know, they don’t see it. 

[00:23:26] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. There’s a lot at risk for women. When you, you know, if, if you’re, if you have a family- Mm-hmm … you’re a mom- You’re a breadwinner

[00:23:33] Deirdre Arato: and, and you’re the breadwinner- Yeah … it’s, yeah, it’s, it- Absolutely … most women will not. Absolutely. They will not l- they will not do it. Absolutely. It’s too much of a headache. Right. They’d rather deal, like, with the devil that they know. But legally, let’s just say, and I know, you know, you can’t give legal advice unless it’s a client, and, you know, I don’t wanna put you on the spot.

[00:23:51] Deirdre Arato: But if it’s a reta- like, let’s say she- Mm-hmm … does complain, and they retaliate. Mm-hmm. Is that now a second lawsuit or…? [00:24:00] 

[00:24:00] Dorina Cela: It’s a great question. So there are different claims that you have in one lawsuit, right? So you have this particular action that you’re filing in a court of law, and there’s different causes of action within that, different claims.

[00:24:14] Dorina Cela: Mm-hmm. So there’s claim for sexual harassment. There’s a claim for retaliation, et cetera. And you have those claims under the federal, uh, statute, and you have those claims under the New York State and New York City, um, statutes. So again, the protections are there. They’re in place. The- issue is how do we address the fact that despite these protections being in place, and despite us living in New York City, which has one of the broadest, most protective statutes when it comes to employees and their rights in the workplace, this is still happening, and it’s happening pervasively.

[00:24:56] Dorina Cela: So how do we as a society prevent this on the [00:25:00] bigger level, right? And it’s about, I think, going back to, especially for women, how we are perceived, how we are perceived as employees in the workplace, the expectations, the shame that comes with being a victim, being a survivor, really- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … um, and the considerations that come with that.

[00:25:23] Dorina Cela: Because we all, like you were talking about, we grew up and we were subjected to harassment. We had friends who were subjected to harassment. And then the questions came. What were you wearing? Mm-hmm. What did you say? Where were you? What time of the day was it? What… Yeah. It’s your fault. It’s, right. It’s your fault.

[00:25:40] Dorina Cela: Did you provoke it? And it’s absolutely horrible. Mm-hmm. Look at what happened with the Me Too movement. Mm-hmm. You know, all of these very brave, phenomenal women- Mm-hmm … who came forward, the backlash that came with that. So it’s very, very difficult. It’s very difficult, but I can’t say this enough because it breaks my heart when I have clients that are on the phone with me and they say, “Darina, [00:26:00] I just don’t know how I didn’t complain.

[00:26:03] Dorina Cela: I don’t know how I didn’t speak up. You know, I wasn’t strong enough.” You are strong enough. No. They were strong enough. In fact, they’re immensely strong for being in those circumstances and trying to figure out the best way to handle it. But it’s about the institutional failure. It’s about what happens to us as a society.

[00:26:22] Dorina Cela: It’s about the perception of women, and we just need to support each other through this. Right. Because whether you complain or you don’t complain, whether you do it alone or you do it with others, you are strong. I can’t say that enough. 

[00:26:34] Deirdre Arato: Right. Well, getting back down to the nitty-gritty, if they complain, if let’s just say the company does something about it, but the harasser stays.

[00:26:45] Deirdre Arato: I mean- Mm-hmm … if they complain and the, and the com- does… By the company doing something about it, does that always mean getting rid of the harasser, or does that mean they stay- Ideally, they should be getting rid of the harasser. Really? Ideally. Ideally. Ideally. But [00:27:00] there are cases where they can stay and- 

[00:27:02] Dorina Cela: Absolutely.

[00:27:02] Dorina Cela: They should not be close to the person that they’re harassing because how are you supposed to go back in the workplace and be next to that person who was making comments to you the other day, who came and, you know, rubbed your shoulder the other day, right? So ideally, that person should no longer be working in that workplace.

[00:27:17] Dorina Cela: Mm-hmm. Because, again, you know, they might stop doing it to this person who complained. That person’s gonna be uncomfortable, but they’re gonna go and do it to someone else That’s just how it typically happens. 

[00:27:26] Deirdre Arato: Right, right. Well, I was just curious, like- Yeah … okay, if you complain and they’re still there- Yeah

[00:27:30] Deirdre Arato: now what are your, what are your repercussions for, like, you know, it not happening again? Yeah. I mean, so I guess as a lawyer. 

[00:27:37] Dorina Cela: And, a- and, and again, you know, just seeking, seeking the right support and the right advice so that you can figure out what your options are, you know, how you can be supported and what you can do about it.

[00:27:49] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. Very good to know. Very, very helpful. Oh my gosh. Of course. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Too many women stay silent because they’re scared. At [00:28:00] harassmenthelp.org, knowledge is power. You don’t have to file anything or confront anyone today, but you can get informed. Visit harassmenthelp.org and take the first step on your own terms.

[00:28:11] Deirdre Arato: If this has been useful, please rate us on Spotify. It takes 10 seconds and helps other women find real answers when they need them the most. Thanks for your support. So out of curiosity, um, and to just try to really get it more in black and white, let’s say my boss is texting me late at night. Mm-hmm. But it’s not about work, and it’s not- Mm-hmm

[00:28:35] Deirdre Arato: sexual. It’s just, “Oh, I, I saw this article and I thought of you,” but it’s 11:00 at night. Exactly. What, I, like, I don’t… Like, I would be, do I answer that? Do I- Yeah … ignore it? Yeah. You know, what, what do I do? I don’t… 

[00:28:48] Dorina Cela: I wouldn’t, so as not to engage, 

[00:28:51] Deirdre Arato: you 

[00:28:51] Dorina Cela: know? 

[00:28:51] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. Easy. So just… And then, okay, let’s just follow that up with- Yeah

[00:28:56] Deirdre Arato: what if he says, “Did you get my text?” [00:29:00] Like, the next day. What do I- Do I do, “Oh, I was sleeping.” Yeah. Or I have to… But now I have to do the whole- I would follow it up with- … maybe my husband was there. I was busy changing. You know, something to, to give a cue that this is inappropriate. Yeah, I mean, these are the…

[00:29:18] Deirdre Arato: We need, like, practical, like, steps to say, okay, uh, he, he commented on my dress and he was like, “Wow, you look beautiful.” Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, I would… Maybe, you know, whatever, right? But I’m just saying, these things happen. Yeah. You know, what do you… Right then and there, do you say, “Well, thank you,” or, um… I mean, you can’t say like, “It’s my boss.”

[00:29:42] Deirdre Arato: I’m not gonna be like, “Oh, that’s inappropriate.” You know? It’s just a compliment. 

[00:29:46] Dorina Cela: It really so much depends on the person’s personality, right? I’m so reluctant to a- to answer that question just as a woman- Mm-hmm … uh, in a very generic way because that goes back to the idea of [00:30:00] shaming the person. Mm-hmm. Um, there’s people who are f- who feel comfortable- Good for them saying- Mm-hmm

[00:30:07] Dorina Cela: “Uh, that’s not okay.” Yeah. “You shouldn’t be commenting on my clothes.” It is phenomenal. Good for you. Yeah. There is people who say thank you in that moment and will figure out a way to address it at a later time. Mm-hmm. You know, or now have an eye on the situation and will try to avort- avoid this person.

[00:30:23] Dorina Cela: Good for you. And there’s people who freeze in that moment and don’t know what to do. Mm-hmm. Maybe they- That may be me. Right, but I can understand that, too. Mm-hmm. And this is why I’m very reluctant, again, as a woman, to answer that- Mm-hmm … question in a very generic way, because we all deal with situations very differently.

[00:30:42] Dorina Cela: And just because someone does not have it in them, by way of their personality, their past experiences- Mm-hmm … what they’re feeling in that moment, to answer in a way that you would or you would expect them to, does not mean that they should be shamed for it- Mm-hmm … whether they didn’t do it the [00:31:00] right way.

[00:31:00] Dorina Cela: Right. 

[00:31:00] Deirdre Arato: Well, I think your earlier point of being uncomfortable- Yeah … unwanted. Yeah. I, I think those key- Yeah … things are part and parcel of, okay, this isn’t okay. Mm-hmm. The, it made me feel uncomfortable. 

[00:31:11] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:12] Deirdre Arato: I’m gonna keep an eye on this. Exactly. And, you know, maybe I’ll jot it down, or just I’m gonna keep note.

[00:31:19] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. I’m gonna take notes because it’s usually not just a one-time thing. 

[00:31:24] Dorina Cela: Yeah, of course. And in an ideal world, you’re saying, “This is not okay. Don’t talk to me like this.” Mm-hmm. You know, it’s not appropriate. You’re writing an email to HR or higher management and saying, “This is what this person said.

[00:31:35] Dorina Cela: I’m completely uncomfortable with this.” Mm-hmm. They do the right thing. The situation never happens again. Off we go into the sunset, right? Wonderful. A g- it’s, I guess you want to be in practice- It didn’t typically happen that way, right. Yeah, yeah. So, and, and that’s the reason why, you know, it really all depends on the person, it depends on the situation, but ideally that would be the course of action.

[00:31:55] Dorina Cela: Okay, so we’re gonna sort of like get 

[00:31:57] Deirdre Arato: an idea 

[00:31:57] Dorina Cela: here- 

[00:31:58] Deirdre Arato: Yeah … of, of a few things [00:32:00] people can do. I, I can tell you what, uh, that this happens in therapy, that they’ll come saying that, “This situation just happened, I didn’t know how to handle it.” Mm-hmm. You know, “I froze.” Mm-hmm. Like you said, that response. Yeah. So, you know, I, I tell clients, you know, use that every…

[00:32:12] Deirdre Arato: You know, therapy’s all about your feelings. Mm-hmm. Right? So pay attention to your feelings. How did that make you feel? “Oh, it made me feel uncomfortable.” All right, perfect. Mm-hmm. So now let’s pause, you know? Let’s pause between that initial reaction, and then in that pause you’re giving yourself time to, to respond- Mm-hmm

[00:32:32] Deirdre Arato: logically. Makes a lot of sense. Yes. Right? Yeah. So, you know, I always tell people, “Pay attention to that pause.” Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Because then you, you’ll be able to, if, pay attention to the feeling. It made me feel uncomfortable. Okay, so now how would you like to respond to that? Mm-hmm. And maybe sometimes the best response is no response at all.

[00:32:49] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. Right. Which then puts somebody in their place. Right. Yeah. And kind of like on notice, like- Mm-hmm … “Hey, you’re not getting anything.” Nice. Yeah, so that’s, that’s awesome. Good to know, [00:33:00] like just trusting your instincts, feeling your gut. Absolutely. And then- You know, if you need it, getting additional- Trust your body

[00:33:07] Deirdre Arato: things. Yeah. 

[00:33:07] Dorina Cela: Yeah, trust your body 100%. Mm-hmm. I agree with you 100% That nervous system is there for a reason. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Survival. And a lot of times we don’t, because we’re listening to all the outside- The 

[00:33:17] Deirdre Arato: chitter 

[00:33:18] Dorina Cela: chatter … chatter. 

[00:33:19] Christina Phillips: Yeah. For sure, 

[00:33:20] Deirdre Arato: for sure. But wow, this is very helpful, and, uh, I can’t wait to keep this conversation going.

[00:33:28] Deirdre Arato: So what doesn’t make it into the newsletter? And from what I’d gathered here, and from my understanding, HR is not always there for the employee. I mean, they’re hired by the employer, and that’s… You know, notwithstanding, I know that there are phenomenal companies out there, and you said that, you know, in a perfect world, they would always do what’s right.

[00:33:50] Deirdre Arato: But if you go to HR, you may not always have a resource there. Mm-hmm. And so I don’t think that’s gonna make it into the company newsletter. I would agree. So what would [00:34:00] you think if, uh, in these situations? In, uh, w- In, like, what’s not gonna be in the company newsletter that we’re not gonna be, you know, that’s sort of, you know, nobody talks about?

[00:34:11] Dorina Cela: The burden shifting to the employee and what they’ve gone through, their suffering. Mm-hmm. Um, right, a lot of the time it becomes about the employee’s responsibility to complain, the respon- employer’s responsibility to, you know, object. And of course, you know, all of that makes sense, right? But a lot of times it’s about creating an environment that is inclusive, an environment that’s encouraging, and does not create fear of consequences from an emp- for an employee who does happen to- Mm-hmm

[00:34:44] Dorina Cela: experience something like that, to then be empowered to come forward and, and talk about it. 

[00:34:48] Deirdre Arato: Right. And from your perspective, what do you think is not gonna be making it into the company newsletter? The emotional toll it takes on the individual that is going through this, because now y- not only do you have [00:35:00] the, the violation of their rights, now, now they’re dealing with their own self-doubt, and they don’t trust themselves, and so it’s a double injury psychologically.

[00:35:11] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. And, uh, physically, it’s going to take a toll. You’re going to have the ruminating thoughts. You’re going to have the anxiety. All of that together- Mm-hmm … it’s just detrimental to the emotional well- emotional and physical wellbeing of the individual. Right. Because they’re constantly having to choose over whether they appease other people- Mm-hmm

[00:35:32] Deirdre Arato: and shrink themselves. Right. Right. And that, over time, is, is definitely going to impact a person psychologically. Remember, your story is a spark that lights the way for someone else. Until next time.