The Truth About HR Nobody Tells You

00:00:00.040 — 00:00:31.480 · Catherine Kleeman

If HR ever says that they are confidential. No, it’s the biggest lie. Think of HR kind of like the cops. Anything can be used against you and it will. They had told her this is confidential. The harasser was made aware of her complaint. After that, he really made her life so difficult at work. So much so that she had to resign.

 

HR is not your friend. Just because a company has policies and procedures doesn’t mean that they are actually in effect for you. That doesn’t mean that they’re actually being followed.

 

00:00:40.360 — 00:01:09.440 · Christina Philips

You’re being harassed or bullied or passed over. Everyone tells you the same thing. Go to HR. But what if the person you think is there to protect you isn’t actually on your side? What’s not in the newsletter? HR works for the company, not for you. I’m Christina Philips. Welcome to not in the newsletter.

 

Today we are here with Catherine Kleeman and Brittany Stephens. Catherine, I understand you’re a solo practitioner and you focus on employment law. Yes. And, Brittany, I know you for many years. You’re.

 

00:01:09.480 — 00:01:14.640 · Brittany Stephens

Yes, I’m a partner of Phillips and Associates, and I practice employment discrimination in New York.

 

00:01:14.680 — 00:01:28.920 · Christina Philips

Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today. I love the conversation we’re about to have because it’s about HR. And I know there are a lot of misconceptions out there. And I want to break it down and dive into it. And, um, starting with you, Catherine,

 

00:01:29.960 — 00:01:42.160 · Christina Philips

I hear you’ve had quite the social media posts that went viral. So can you share a little bit about that with how, you know, it resonated with your followers and why you think it took off?

 

00:01:42.200 — 00:02:14.850 · Catherine Kleeman

Yeah. So I actually the post didn’t go on TikTok or Instagram. It was actually on LinkedIn, which is sometimes when you looked at it, it’s a little dry and I wanted to change things up and I wanted to talk. People were at the time and always posting a lot about trying to obtain a job or what they’re going through in the workplace.

 

But it was a little, um, curated. So I kind of debunked the myth. I started talking about HR, and I basically started and said, you know, if HR ever says that they are confidential, no, it’s the biggest lie

 

00:02:16.450 — 00:03:26.210 · Catherine Kleeman

awake. And then I know that there was a part of the, you know, post where it said, you know, kind of think of HR, kind of like the cops, anything can be used against you and it will. And I really focused on not only fearmongering them, but providing solutions, which is documenting, documenting what you’re going through.

 

And if you speak to them, send an email. Because the more documentation you have, the better you’re going to protect yourself from them using anything against you. And you know, I was it was actually my fourth post I’ve ever posted. Wow. Yeah. And it went up to that post, went up to 77,000 likes. And I think I just checked just to make sure I’m, you know, everything’s valid.

 

I think 6 million impressions that post and it at that point I just, um, was at the start of having my own firm and it changed a lot for me. And then I’m like, well, people really, really need this information. And it resonated with so many people. So I started posting a couple of times a week, and it became something that was very meaningful to me and my now like 61,000 followers.

 

00:03:26.250 — 00:03:45.130 · Christina Philips

Wow. Amazing. I mean, this is, um, I mean, it’s kind of shocking that something about HR would have that sort of response because, I mean, it was always, I’m not an attorney, but it was always my thought that HR was there to help you. But in your experience, Brittany, is that not the case now? I think your post really.

 

00:03:45.130 — 00:03:47.810 · Brittany Stephens

Spoke volumes, right? I think a lot of people think.

 

00:03:47.810 — 00:04:21.690 · Brittany Stephens

That they can complain to human resources, and human resources is there to protect them, and in reality, human resources is there for the employer, right? They’re there to protect them. So that’s why it’s so important that when clients call us, you know, at any time that they’re getting discriminated against or, you know, retaliated against that, if we’re able to help them, like at the time, they’re making a complaint to the employer.

 

We’re really able to, like, offer extra protection for them because HR is going to protect the company. And that’s why lawyers are so important to, like, help protect the employee. And the time they’re complaining.

 

00:04:21.730 — 00:04:28.730 ·  Christina Philips

Is there anything that you would advise that you know an employee should not say to HR?

 

00:04:28.930 — 00:05:40.900 · Catherine Kleeman

Um, I think okay. One thing, although I agree absolutely that they should be as honest as possible, sometimes they get a little bit emotional and almost a little bit volatile. So I actually tell employees before they go to HR to maybe rehearse it even with themselves, write it down, try to remove all of the emotions, maybe additional emotions behind to make them seem as credible as possible.

 

And I think that’s really, really important. And another thing that employees I really think that they should do is as soon as they speak to HR. Send them an email that says exactly what you said to HR or some form of verbatim, because HR has a tendency to use what’s set against you and they can change up what was said or maybe misunderstand what was discussed.

 

And if they get that email and says that’s not what was said. You know, that’s one thing, but that usually never happens. They just accept that email and it could be used on to protect you from them saying, oh no, this, this is not what was said. This was completely discussed. Like, you know, they acted inappropriately or, you know, something like that.

 

00:05:40.940 — 00:06:39.340 · Brittany Stephens

Right. And just to kind of go off of that. Right. I think like, um, protecting yourself is very important during that meeting. So, you know, additional examples is where I practice in New York. So it’s a one person recording consent state. So I love when my clients come to me saying I complain to HR and I have a recording of it.

 

Um, that way, you know. HR they’re supposed to take notes. They’re supposed to have some kind of documentation of the meeting. But what we find is that they rarely do. Or sometimes those notes go missing at the time of discovery, or they try and claim some kind of privilege. So having some kind of documentation and I agree, Catherine, even if you’re writing an email after kind of recapping things that were discussed, you need to be thinking about protecting yourself.

 

Right. HR will do everything to protect themselves. And like the priority is talking, talking to them, maybe speaking to a lawyer beforehand.

 

00:06:39.380 — 00:06:41.900 · Christina Philips

That was going to be my next question. So you know.

 

00:06:41.940 — 00:07:08.180 · Brittany Stephens

I love when a client is, you know, calls me ahead of time and says, you know, I’m I want to complain to HR. And I say, well, let me talk you through this. This is how it’s going to work. They don’t even have to know about me. I’ll be behind the scenes. This is what I want you to say. Um, and this is how we’re going to document it.

 

So having a lawyer who can kind of walk you through what to say, make you feel more comfortable in the process. I think is like a very important tool to have.

 

00:07:08.220 — 00:07:26.300 · Christina Philips

Mhm. So then I guess if um, you know there is a retaliation, you’re already on board, you’re already prepped. The, your client is prepped and so would you say that the best case scenario is to call an attorney before you go into HR.

 

00:07:26.340 — 00:07:53.420 · Catherine Kleeman

Absolutely. Absolutely. Just even getting well, I mean, not all attorneys, uh, want to speak to somebody before there’s a case, which I think is incorrect. I think that they should always speak to somebody before the retaliation or before the HR complaint is done, because that’s the best thing. You have the ability to prep your potential client as to, you know, what’s going to be said and discussing.

 

They feel more comfortable coming in there in the first place.

 

00:07:53.460 — 00:08:09.150 · Christina Philips

Very good to know. I wouldn’t have thought that if you’re just going in to talk about something that’s going on that you would have to get an attorney involved before, you know what I’m saying. I guess there are more egregious issues. You know, if it’s sexual harassment or

 

00:08:10.190 — 00:08:11.510 · Christina Philips

pregnancy discrimination.

 

00:08:11.510 — 00:08:49.510 · Brittany Stephens

I also think, you know, our clients call us and they want different things, right? Some of our clients are getting harassed, but they still want to work at the company. Right. Which is fine. So having like an external complaint from a lawyer isn’t always the best approach. Sometimes it’s better to kind of have a lawyer help behind the scenes drafting, like internally, you know, helping the client draft an internal, you know, communication to human resources so that the client could be safe, but also not feel like they have to leave the company because there is an external, you know, letter demand letter from the, you know, a law firm outlining everything.

 

00:08:49.510 — 00:08:51.550 · Christina Phillips

Because it would put them on sort of a. Right.

 

00:08:51.590 — 00:09:08.870 · Brittany Stephens

Right, right. Yeah. And, you know, that’s why asking the client like, what is it that you want, do you want to stay here? Do you want me to help you with some kind of way out of here? Do you want to transfer? Because, you know, every client wants something different? Um, so, you know, having that conversation is very important.

 

00:09:08.910 — 00:09:26.430 · Christina Phillips

Well, I think it’s a great option to be able to have, you know, two and again, I just want to repeat, we’ve said this a little bit on the, on this podcast that a lot of employment attorneys and I know your firm will take cases on contingency. And so you’re not laying out a lot of money to write to.

 

00:09:26.470 — 00:09:56.070 · Brittany Stephens

Right. I mean, we take nothing unless we’re able to recover. A lot of times we just help people, like, navigate like very difficult situations. I help women and men who are sexually harassed just, you know, maybe, like I said, get a transfer, get away if they still want to work for the company. Um, but yes, like, having a contingency lawyer obviously helps because not all of our, you know, clients could afford to pay thousands of dollars for, for legal, you know, for legal assistance.

 

00:09:56.230 — 00:10:21.510 · Christina Phillips

I think it’s just, um, you know, when somebody is just starting out and they think, you know, and they’re not totally aware of how everything works, maybe in their new job or what’s going on, you know, they would think to trust. And so just so that there’s an awareness out there. I love I mean, clearly with your social media post, I mean, people are really.

 

I do think that people just didn’t know. They just did not know that. No.

 

00:10:21.550 — 00:10:42.790 · Catherine Kleeman

They can nobody teaches that in like school, especially when you’re in college. Like people, I always focus a lot on people that are just coming out of the like to the workforce. There’s kind of like there’s an idealized version of what the workplace is. They don’t know. Do you think of HR? You think, okay, like human resources, there have resources.

 

For me, I’m a human, right.

 

00:10:43.550 — 00:10:44.670 · Christina Phillips

It’s in the name alone.

 

00:10:45.590 — 00:11:11.920 · Catherine Kleeman

So I go through somebody, I can be vulnerable. I can say things that, you know, nothing will ever be used against me. But nobody teaches them that. You have to be very one practical, but do everything to protect yourself. I take contingency cases in California and New York, but the difference between California and New York is that in New York I can get potentially that that recording, which I’m very happy about in California.

 

00:11:11.960 — 00:11:13.440 · Christina Phillps

I can’t it’s a two party state.

 

00:11:13.480 — 00:11:35.880 · Catherine Kleeman

It’s a two party state. And that’s why the documentation is something I really, um, I value, and it’s something if I can get. That’s amazing because I can’t get that recording. And even if I do, sometimes I’ve have situations where people try to send me that recording that was done in a way that I can’t use.

 

So, um, you know, at all, at all, at all.

 

00:11:36.120 — 00:12:34.760 · Brittany Stephens

Right. And then it can get the client in trouble. Right. Um, and just to, like, add on to what you’re saying about human resources, because people do have the assumption that, you know, human resources is there to help. But you also have to remember that, like, this is the place that people are getting paid from.

 

Right. Like they go to human resources for their paycheck. This is where the policies and procedures are coming from. So like, there’s this thought of it’s a place to help them because, you know, that’s all they’ve seen, right. And then everything changes when they go and they make the complaint and they realize, okay, I’m sitting across from, you know, one or 2 or 3 people who are more or less deposing me on my allegations and maybe not believing me.

 

And maybe, you know, I’m not empathizing with what I’m going through. And that’s usually the first time they realize, okay, HR is not is not here for me.

 

00:12:34.800 — 00:12:39.160 · Christina Philips 

So is there ever a time that you would recommend when they absolutely should go?

 

00:12:39.680 — 00:13:06.000 · Catherine Kleeman

I think for the purposes of documentation, I just I always tell people, I know your expectations is for them to do a proper investigation, but there’s a possibility they won’t and you’ll be coming to HR and requesting, hey, like what’s going on with this? My investigation and you get nothing And you become disheartened.

 

So to go for solely for the purposes of documentation and the rest. You know, watch out for the aftermath.

 

00:13:06.000 — 00:13:07.320 · Christina Philips

So you agree.

 

00:13:07.440 — 00:13:18.640 · Brittany Stephens

I too, I mean, I cannot tell you how many times we get into court and we ask for the investigation file and we find out that there is none, really.

 

00:13:18.680 — 00:13:19.080 · Brittany Stephens

They just.

 

00:13:19.080 — 00:13:43.360 · Brittany Stephens

Don’t. They just, you know, they swept it under the rug. They didn’t interview the witnesses that our clients had told them about. Um, you know, they didn’t even speak to the harasser sometimes. Um, so, yes, I would like to think that there’s always an investigation, but we find that that’s not not not always the case.

 

So, yes, the documentation element is the most important reason to go.

 

00:13:43.480 — 00:13:49.760 · Christina Philips

So I guess so the documentation is going to absolutely help to preserve the legal claims.

 

00:13:49.800 — 00:13:50.080 · Brittany Stephens

Right.

 

00:13:50.080 — 00:14:16.130 · Christina Philips

Yeah. Because it has to be. And is there like a timing of like let’s say you go to HR, you know, let’s say I went in 2025. Now, like the beginning of 2025, now nothing was done. Or maybe something was done. And then it starts to happen again 2026. Are they going to go back in time and look at that. You know like I say I go to you.

 

Are you going to go all the way back to the first.

 

00:14:16.170 — 00:14:43.930 · Brittany Stephens

Yes. So, you know, being put on notice, having the company being put on notice that could amplify damages in courts. Right. There’s punitive damages that we can get. Sometimes we also find out that other people had made complaints against the same person. Um, and if that’s the case and the company didn’t take, like, prompt remedial action.

 

I mean, that could really put the employer on the hook for liability because, you know, they didn’t do enough to protect the employee.

 

00:14:44.250 — 00:14:53.930 · Brittany Stephens

And yeah, I mean, so and since it’s not confidential, I guess then it, you know, it has to be made, you know, public. Right. If there’s a complaint that’s in court or something or.

 

00:14:53.970 — 00:14:54.850 · Brittany Stephens

Um, so.

 

00:14:55.290 — 00:15:44.610 · Brittany Stephens

You know, it really depends. A lot of times we ask for, you know, investigations from, you know, or complaints made by other employees against that same harasser. And we are entitled to get that information in New York. But it is a battle every single time. Those documents are not easily turned over. Um, there’s also like time limits as to how far back we may be able to get them.

 

Um, we’re also only entitled to the same type of discrimination sometimes. So, you know, if my client is alleging gender discrimination. But it just so happens that that individual that harassed her, maybe there’s a claim against them for race discrimination. There could be a reason we may not get those documents.

 

Um, so, you know, everything’s a fight in court, but, um.

 

00:15:44.610 — 00:15:47.930 · Christina Philips

But that initial contact with HR is helpful. So.

 

00:15:47.970 — 00:15:49.010 · Brittany Stephens

Absolutely.

 

00:15:49.050 — 00:16:02.140 · Christina Philips

Yes. So that’s when you should just to get, you know, to put them on notice, make the a documented Claim, you know, whatever it is, and even if they resolve it. But then, you know, you’re you’re protected. So

 

00:16:03.620 — 00:16:24.340 · Christina Philips

if you’re stuck in your head asking, is this normal or should I say something? Harassment help is where you start. We give you the language, the options, and the real talk that can help you move forward. Visit harassment today. What is would you say would be the biggest mistake that they make when they do initially go to HR?

 

00:16:25.180 — 00:16:49.620 · Catherine Kleeman

I think like we just spoke about being very emotional almost to a point of volatile. Um, maybe saying, uh, saying too much. I think sometimes you say too much and it could be used against you. And that’s why I always tell people it’s best to rehearse it or speak to an attorney beforehand. Um, and also not documenting or, well, in California, not documenting in New York, not recording.

 

00:16:52.100 — 00:16:59.460 · Christina Philips

Okay. So hopefully everybody out there, you know, you have to know your own state. You have to know whether you’re a two party or one party recording state.

 

00:16:59.460 — 00:17:21.459 · Catherine Kleeman

And so and one thing also, if you report if you reported something, especially if you talk to an attorney, you already know that something potentially may happen to you. You might lose your job the next day. So if you have any evidence that is in your business email, try to obtain it before you lose access to it.

 

So I think that’s really, really important.

 

00:17:21.500 — 00:18:11.220 · Brittany Stephens

Yes. And be careful how you do that too, right? You know, sending stuff from your work email to your personal email, there may be some violations of company policy. So you really that’s why speaking to a lawyer is very smart to do ahead of time, because they can also advise you as to how to go about things in like a lawful way.

 

Right. Um, to not put that client in more harm. Um, oftentimes we see, um, you know, after you make a complaint, there is a, you know, a reason for the termination that may actually be, like, legitimate, right? And then it’s up for the attorney to argue what we call pretext under the law. And it’s a lot more difficult for the attorney when the reason may be legitimate.

 

Right. Like a legitimate business reason.

 

00:18:11.300 — 00:18:22.180 · Christina Philips

So then the thing is, it’s surprising that if they are trying to, like, retrieve emails and everything, is that just considered company property?

 

00:18:22.260 — 00:19:02.310 · Brittany Stephens

Sometimes it is. Yeah, it really always is. Um, there are protections for being able to, like, preserve evidence when you’re getting discriminated against. And again, these are all things that we fight in court about like all the time. Right. Um, but yes, there are times when we see, um, you know, employees sending personal information from the company or proprietary information from the company to their emails.

 

And, you know, it’s just it’s a it’s a workaround that we do as lawyers. That’s that’s why we’re good at what we do. Right. We’re constantly trying to figure out how to argue that there’s no breach here of confidentiality.

 

00:19:02.510 — 00:19:17.830 · Christina Philips

Again, this is just absolutely fascinating. And it’s kind of a shock, you know, to be honest. And so I would love to hear if you could share any stories, you know, that you’ve been through with people about how this actually really plays out in real time. Sure.

 

00:19:17.910 — 00:20:41.830 · Brittany Stephens

Yeah. I have I have a bunch of examples I’ll tell you about a client of mine that I was recently able to get her out of, just like a really bad situation at work. Um, she was getting sexually harassed by a rather, like, high, high powered individual at the workplace. Someone in the C-suite. Um, was, you know, courageous enough to make a complaint.

 

They had told her this is confidential. Um, you know, she she believed that to have been true. Um, but in reality, it wasn’t. The harasser was made aware of her complaints or or at least enough that he was able to figure out who was making the complaint against her. And after that, he really made her life so difficult at work, so much so that she had to resign.

 

And under the law, we called that a constructive discharge when, like the work environment is so intolerable that you feel you have as if you have no choice but to resign. And because he was in a position of power over her, he was able to, you know, um, ruin her career trajectory, ruin her reputational harm.

 

He was able to, um, you know, isolate her from meetings. Um, she had a work trip that she was very excited to go to, that she was then taken off of that work trip. Um, but.

 

00:20:42.070 — 00:20:42.390 · Brittany Stephens

You know.

 

00:20:42.430 — 00:21:26.870 · Brittany Stephens

Just the damage he had done to her after the complaints was really, really awful. Um, and, you know, we didn’t step in until after she had left. Right. And I wish I had known about this, you know, previously, because I would have been able to help her. Um, you know, she still had a claim. We were still able to resolve it, but it kind of just goes to Catherine’s point of, um, you know, not everything is confidential.

 

Because even if the employer says we will keep things confidential, you know, there’s always going to be some information that they have to give to the harasser so that they can kind of, you know, they’ll figure out who’s making a complaint against this situation.

 

00:21:26.910 — 00:21:33.750 · Christina Philips

I mean, I guess how can they sort of make it better if they don’t let the person like, hey, you have to stop this behavior, right?

 

00:21:33.790 — 00:21:35.350 · Brittany Stephens

Right. Even if they don’t give their name.

 

00:21:35.390 — 00:21:42.750 · Christina Philips

Yeah, well, they would know who they’re harassing, right? Unless it’s such a huge company that they’re just throwing many people out, which is possible, too. I’m sure.

 

00:21:42.790 — 00:21:43.910 · Brittany Stephens

Yes, we see that, too.

 

00:21:43.910 — 00:21:54.320 · Christina Philips

I bet you do. And, um, do people ever, when they come to you, say, I should have never complained. I should have never gone, you know. Is that a common occurrence.

 

00:21:54.440 — 00:22:19.320 · Catherine Kleeman

Um, well, especially the one I still keep their job if they love their job. You know, I have a lot of situations. Very people that like, you know, find purpose in their work, and they actually complain for the purpose of making the in the workplace a better place. So I have a lot of situations, especially in California, where we have very strict, uh, laws relating to whistleblowing and especially related to laws that.

 

00:22:19.320 — 00:22:19.520 · Catherine Kleeman

Are.

 

00:22:19.520 — 00:23:03.560 · Catherine Kleeman

Violated. So, for instance, I have people that are very high positions and they find out their management is, um, violating the law. So they, you know, they do for the best interest of the company to report it to HR. And as soon as they do it, um, what happens is, you know, people find out and everything that they’ve done in the company, all of their accolades, all especially if they’ve been in the company for so many years, it’s as if none of it matters.

 

They are turned into a person of disinterest. They don’t want to work with them anymore. They get ostracized and it becomes a dehumanizing experience. And they feel so alone because the people, like a lot of people’s jobs, is their whole livelihood.

 

00:23:03.600 — 00:23:07.440 · Christina Philips

Oh my gosh, they can be there. So, you know, from morning till like late in the evening.

 

00:23:07.680 — 00:23:07.880 · Brittany Stephens

And.

 

00:23:07.880 — 00:24:00.440 · Brittany Stephens

Especially the clients that live paycheck to paycheck who really need their job. Um, you know, it’s a lot harder for people to come and complain. Um, I explain to clients that, look, when you make a complaint of discrimination, think of it as you’re in like, a protective bubble, right? They’re not allowed to terminate you or retaliate against you because you made that complaint.

 

However, that doesn’t mean that they’ll actually listen to that. And what they often do is they’ll find a non retaliatory, nondiscriminatory reason to terminate you. Um, so I tell my clients, try and be on your best behavior after you do make a complaint, because they will look for any reason to retaliate against you.

 

Right. You’re late one day. Um, you know, maybe you. know, you weren’t as efficient as you should have been that day. And then all of a sudden, you know,

 

00:24:01.600 — 00:24:03.600 · Brittany Stephens

there you go. Right. Some kind of adverse action.

 

00:24:03.600 — 00:24:35.040 · Christina Philips

But it sounds like if if, let’s just say the, uh, the employee is making an initial complaint to HR about sexual harassment, let’s just say now that’s not confidential, the workplace becomes terrible or something. And now they’re giving bad performance and they’re looking for any reason. And it could be not related to anything they’re trying to look like for a reason.

 

And now they are, um, they’re you’re being terminated. And so now, as the attorneys, are you going for a two part it’s, you know, sexual harassment and retaliation?

 

00:24:37.240 — 00:24:48.680 · Brittany Stephens

Yeah. Yes. And that happens all the time. Right. There’s, um, when there’s discrimination, often there’s retaliation as well. There’s claims a lot of times go hand in hand. Yes.

 

00:24:48.840 — 00:25:16.930 · Christina Philips

Um, you know, so one thing that, you know, I wasn’t sure if I could talk about, but since I’m here with two attorneys, you just stop me if it’s too much. But, I mean, we all remember the Coldplay incident, right? She was an HR, so, you know, that’s her, I guess. Her boss. Right? So what? And. All right. Clearly, they were in a consensual relationship.

 

But what if it’s not consensual? That person in HR is being sexually harassed. How? Where does she go? Who does she turn to on attorney? Just an attorney. Like that’s it? Yeah.

 

00:25:16.970 — 00:25:45.130 · Catherine Kleeman

Because at this point, going internal, you know, it’s not a place of safety. You have to go external because HR is the place you have to go. But if you don’t have those measures, you’re going to have to go into external and speak to at least a lawyer to document this information and find out the best route to to go about this, because there is an unequal balance of power there.

 

And, um, I think at that point that’s the only thing that can be done.

 

00:25:45.170 — 00:26:10.250 · Brittany Stephens

Right. And not every company has human resources, right. So like in that situation. Right. That happens a lot where someone’s getting harassed by their boss, by the owner of the company, and they call us and they say, well, there’s no one to report this to. I don’t even know where to go. There’s no human resources office or office.

 

Um, so, you know, we see that all the time, even if it’s not just the human resources individual getting, you know, harassed.

 

00:26:10.530 — 00:26:47.490 · Christina Philips

Stay in the conversation with us on LinkedIn. Sends a scenario you’d like us to unpack. Your story might help another woman find the clarity she needs. You can grab the link in the episode description. Thank you so much again for joining me. This has been such an informative discussion and I’ve learned so much.

 

I hope everybody else has learned so much. And I think now we have a very clear idea about what we should and should not do when it comes to human resources, but just to close out our session, we always like to do a little bit of a thing where it’s like, what’s not going to be in the company newsletter? And I mean, I think you guys can take it away because you’ve given us such great info today.

 

00:26:47.530 — 00:27:29.410 · Catherine Kleeman

Well, I think the first thing, like I said, like HR is not your friend. Um, they are paid by the company. Everything can and will be used against you if they have to. Um, if you are going to HR, definitely send a follow up email. Uh, like I said, in California, you send that email in New York, you do that recording.

 

And, um, just think about yourself. I know sometimes people come in and they’re not even thinking about themselves. They’re looking for the best interests of the company. But sometimes you have to think about your preservation in your workplace because it is your livelihood. And that’s really important.

 

00:27:29.450 — 00:28:36.340 · Brittany Stephens

Thank you. Uh, I would add that, um, that’s just because a company has policies and procedures doesn’t mean that they are actually in effect. Um, oftentimes I have defense counsel use as a defense in, you know, my clients discrimination lawsuits that. Well, look, our company has these these procedures, these policies.

 

We don’t tolerate sexual harassment or retaliation. And, you know, my response to them is like, you know, good for you. Right. Like, I’m glad you at least have these policies, but that doesn’t mean that they’re actually being followed or that they are being implemented. Um, and sometimes human resources uses these policies and procedures to almost, like, scare people away.

 

Right. Or what they’ll do is they will say, well, there’s a procedure for complaining about sexual harassment. Why didn’t you follow that procedure when it happened, you know, a year ago. And that’s like a really terrible, terrible thing to say to someone when they’re complaining. Um, so just remember, you know, yes, companies have policies and procedures, but are they really being implemented?

 

00:28:36.700 — 00:28:44.460 · Christina Philips

That is like that is this has been tremendous. And I cannot thank you ladies both so much. I really, really appreciate it.

 

00:28:44.460 — 00:28:46.780 · Brittany Stephens

Thank you for having us. Thank you. Pleasure.

 

00:28:47.140 — 00:28:52.780 · Christina Philips

Remember, your story is a spark that lights the way for someone else. Until next time.