A Whistleblower’s Choice Between Truth and Income 

[00:00:00] Jesse Weinstein: A whistleblower is just somebody who stands up for something that they think is wrong and gets punished for it. They don’t stand for any sort of injustice. It’s, it’s contrary to, like, who they are as humans. It’s boiling. It’s almost excruciating for them, at least as my clients tell me that actually watch it happen.

 

[00:00:14] Deirdre Arato: This whole idea of, like, loyalty. If your loyalty is silence- 

 

[00:00:19] Jesse Weinstein: Your job is not to prove the corruption. Your job is to prove that it was reasonable for our clients to think that something corrupt was happening

 

[00:00:35] Christina Phillips: You saw something, you know it’s wrong, but the second you think about reporting it, your brain does the math. Mortgage, insurance, tuition, and suddenly integrity feels expensive. Today, we’re talking about what it actually costs to tell the truth at work. I’m Christina Phillips. Welcome to Not in the Newsletter.

 

[00:00:52] Deirdre Arato: Today we’re here with Jesse Weinstein from Phillips & Associates. He’s an employment discrimination attorney, and we’re also here with, uh, 

 

[00:00:59] Christina Phillips: [00:01:00] Deirdre Arado, who is a psychotherapist. Thank you guys so much for joining me. 

 

[00:01:03] Deirdre Arato: Thank you for having 

 

[00:01:04] Jesse Weinstein: us. Thanks for having us. 

 

[00:01:05] Christina Phillips: I love it. Um, we are discussing being a whistleblower today and how that plays out, and Jesse is an expert, so we are gonna get his take on it and, uh, we’re gonna learn some new things today.

 

[00:01:18] Christina Phillips: So let’s get into it. You know, a lot of times I wouldn’t be thinking that whistleblowing or being a whistleblower is something that would fall under employment discrimination. And so what exactly is it? 

 

[00:01:34] Jesse Weinstein: So it’s a, that’s a pretty broad question with a, with a pretty narrow answer, right? And, and I think if, in short, a whistleblower is just somebody who stands up for something that they think is wrong and gets punished for it.

 

[00:01:45] Jesse Weinstein: I think that that’s the, the, the ten-second answer, right? Mm-hmm. Um, in the employment context, um, a whistleblower is somebody who complains about something in the workplace that they think is, is unethical or, or illegal or unlawful. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:02:00] and they escalate it to the, to the proper authorities, and then they start to feel retaliation in the employment context.

 

[00:02:05] Jesse Weinstein: And not necessarily being fired, which is the classic retaliation, but, you know, suspended, iced from meetings, uh, made to be lame duck employees, um, insulated, sort of stigmatized, damaged goods, uh, reputation sort of thing. 

 

[00:02:20] Christina Phillips: Wow. So then, you know, with your expertise, it’s, it’s a, again, a workplace situation where that is stressful.

 

[00:02:28] Christina Phillips: I mean, have you ever seen this in your practice where somebody- Yeah … is just so stressed out? Absolutely. 

 

[00:02:33] Deirdre Arato: And, and they come with a lot of guilt because they, they are… They realize something is wrong, but they also don’t wanna be the ones to make the whole system collapse and fall apart if they come out and say what they have to say that, that is causing this issue.

 

[00:02:49] Deirdre Arato: So they f- they do face a lot of guilt and doubt. Like, you know, “Maybe it’s me. Am I overreacting?” Um, so it is very [00:03:00] stressful. 

 

[00:03:00] Jesse Weinstein: And there’s a c- there’s a certain characteristic about whistleblowers. Uh, like, it, it takes a certain type of person to be a whistleblower, right? It’s much easier to turn your head knowing that there’s no consequences, right?

 

[00:03:09] Jesse Weinstein: Especially, like, at work. There are, there are unethical things that happen that may not impact a person who notices it, but that person is the same person who doesn’t like seeing somebody cut somebody in the deli line- … at the grocery stores. Right. You know, they don’t, they don’t stand for any sort of injustice.

 

[00:03:24] Jesse Weinstein: It’s, it’s contrary to, like, who they are as humans. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Um, and so it, it’s boiling. It’s almost excruciating for them, at least as my clients tell me that actually watch it happen. 

 

[00:03:34] Christina Phillips: Right. Right. Right. So they must, you know… You, do you ch- do you guide them through? Do they come to you before they, like, make that call, you know, or do they mostly come to you after it’s done?

 

[00:03:44] Jesse Weinstein: So it’s a mixture. It, w- lately, a lot of my clients are still working there. They’re, they’re high-level executives, and they’re starting to see that the tides are turning. And, you know, when, when you think of a whistleblower, um, you think of what you’re seeing on CNN with Boeing and, and people, you know, disappearing in a [00:04:00] van somewhere, you know?

 

[00:04:00] Jesse Weinstein: Um, that’s like- And going into, like- … classic whistleblower, but- … witness, 

 

[00:04:03] Christina Phillips: witness protection. 

 

[00:04:04] Jesse Weinstein: But, like, what actually is really happening is that the- there’s statutes that, that- Mm-hmm … protect individual employees, and they don’t even know that they’re whistleblowers. They’re calling, and they’re just like, “You know, I’ve been here for, for 20 years.

 

[00:04:15] Jesse Weinstein: I never had a bad evaluation. I’ve been promoted. But, you know, I started noticing that, that certain pegs were being put in the wrong holes, and I, and I, I’m having these conversations, and it doesn’t feel right.” Or, or they’re calling, and they’re saying, “I just got handed severance after-” 25 years with no explanation of why I’m- 

 

[00:04:31] Christina Phillips: Right

 

[00:04:31] Jesse Weinstein: being removed except a reduction of force. But there’s a job posting for my job. Wow. What do I do, Jessi? So like, sometimes it’s just a matter of helping them navigate while they’re there. 

 

[00:04:41] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:04:42] Jesse Weinstein: Or, you know, helping them plan a, a responsive attack, you know, p- p- on the plaintiff’s side. Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:04:47] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. Wow. I notice also that I hear a lot of people saying that, um, they, they wanna be loyal To their company and to their job.

 

[00:04:58] Deirdre Arato: They invested so much of their time [00:05:00] in it. But to see that there are things that are going wrong, and to speak up about it, they feel bad, you know? 

 

[00:05:07] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. Yeah. And again, it’s who they are. Yeah. Like, they, they can’t help it. They can’t shake it. Even i- … You know, they’ll go home and they’ll, they’ll ruminate over it.

 

[00:05:15] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. And it just seems so wrong and, and when you’re somebody who acutely notices the wrongdoing, it’s even more excruciating for them when nobody else around them knows it. It’s like they, they’re holding this invisible flaming ball in their hands and they don’t know what to do with it. 

 

[00:05:28] Deirdre Arato: Right. 

 

[00:05:29] Jesse Weinstein: And then when they do- The pressure

 

[00:05:30] Jesse Weinstein: when they do, they, they’re hoping that the people they’re talking to do the right thing. There, there’s, to your point on loyalty, the people that they’re complaining to, they’ve had great relationships with before. They’re, these are people who they’re like, “Oh, this is my boss for 11 years now. He’s gonna help me navigate this.”

 

[00:05:45] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden, you know, the, the company line starts pumping and that boss does exactly what his boss told him to do. Right. And that’s to get rid of him. Don’t fix the problem. Like, get rid of the people who are gonna put a flashlight on it. 

 

[00:05:57] Christina Phillips: Yeah. That’s, that’s really, um, kind of [00:06:00] sad. I mean, that’s, that, that, you know, is that you’re being punished for doing the right thing, basically, is- Right

 

[00:06:05] Christina Phillips: is what it sounds like. 

 

[00:06:07] Deirdre Arato: Right. And that’s often what I hear people say. You know, “I’m the bad guy. I, I notice that there is something going s- there is something way off here, but if I bring it to everyone’s attention, I’m the bad guy, and then I’ll be ostracized, isolated, stigmatized.” 

 

[00:06:22] Christina Phillips: I’d love to hear some examples.

 

[00:06:24] Christina Phillips: I’m just… This is not an area I’m that familiar with, so anything that you can share with us so our viewers and our listeners can really get an idea of what it is, what in- it involves and, and what you’ve seen. 

 

[00:06:35] Jesse Weinstein: Sure. I, I, so this is a, this whistleblower retaliation problem is something that has been cross border in every area of employment, uh, that I’ve seen.

 

[00:06:45] Jesse Weinstein: I, I mean, I’ve seen whistleblowers who work at a restaurant, busboys who are saying, “Hey, listen, the, there, there are rats running around the kitchen.” Mm. Um, like, like literally have saw somebody get fired for highlighting that. And like, this is a Michelin-rated restaurant, right? Like, [00:07:00] um, and you know, I have, I’ve seen school teachers, you know, s- in the special education realm, um, you know, just trying to make sure that the, the, you know, federally protected paperwork that makes sure that their special needs students- Right

 

[00:07:12] Jesse Weinstein: are getting the resources that they need are getting, um, that, that they’re escalating these concerns. 

 

[00:07:16] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:07:17] Jesse Weinstein: But because the schools often are not having budgets in the, in the schools that need it the most in marginalized areas, there’s no speech pathologist on site, or there’s not enough paraprofessionals on site.

 

[00:07:27] Jesse Weinstein: And so they can’t, they can’t fix that problem. But what they can do is get rid of the teacher who’s gonna make a thing about it, ’cause there’s always somebody waiting in line for a job. 

 

[00:07:36] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. 

 

[00:07:36] Jesse Weinstein: Um, uh, you know, more corporate level- Mm-hmm … you know, we see financial executives, um, who are, are really seeing a lot of corrupt things happen at institutions that the whole entire world knows.

 

[00:07:48] Jesse Weinstein: Um, numbers are being fudged. Um, shareholders are being misled. You know, things are being said In a way that, that is blatantly just untrue. 

 

[00:07:58] Deirdre Arato: Right. 

 

[00:07:59] Jesse Weinstein: Right? And so [00:08:00] they escalate these concerns, um, and, and they’re getting fired for it. And tho- those employees are, are really fascinating to me because they have like, I think, credibility baked into them a little bit because they’re executives.

 

[00:08:12] Jesse Weinstein: They, they have close proximity to, you know, where the actual engine is. And so i- I think it creates, in my experience, like a really huge knee-jerk reaction, especially in the financial industry, when one of those types of clients complains. 

 

[00:08:28] Christina Phillips: So do they then become blacklisted because they become known as a troublemaker since they, you know, blew the whistle?

 

[00:08:33] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah, it… They really do. And, and I think… I’ve really watched like leadership in these institutions like unravel. I don’t really think they know what to do with it because again, these people have credibility caked into it, and if they’re telling the truth- And they’re, and they’re actually correct about what they’re complaining about.

 

[00:08:51] Jesse Weinstein: You know, only one slice of the pie is getting rid of them, and they think that that is a huge… Like, I think the first knee-jerk reaction is to always remove them from [00:09:00] the- their access to the problem so that they can then strategize how to work around it on the- 

 

[00:09:04] Christina Phillips: You know, but to that end, Jesse, are any industries off limits for this type of, you know, lawsuit?

 

[00:09:10] Christina Phillips: Or… 

 

[00:09:11] Jesse Weinstein: Absolutely, absolutely not. Like, there is, uh, no world where an employee is not eligible for the, the protections. And I, and I think we joked around about this a little earlier. You could work at Truck-Y-Cheese and find a way to be unethical. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s the, it’s… ‘Cause it’s the people that create the problems, not the institutions.

 

[00:09:26] Jesse Weinstein: You know, an institution can’t create an issue. It’s, it’s the people who are running it. Right. And it trickles down. It always does. 

 

[00:09:33] Christina Phillips: But yeah, that makes sense. Um, yeah, but I think it’s just, like, not something that we see too much about, you know, in the news where, you know, we only hear about, like, the huge cases and so- 

 

[00:09:43] Deirdre Arato: Right.

 

[00:09:44] Deirdre Arato: And s- but it happens. It happens in every organization and every institution. So that’s important to, for people to understand, that, you know, even if you are a paraprofessional in a school, or if you’re working in a restaurant, you know, you can be the whistleblower. 

 

[00:09:59] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah, they n- [00:10:00] they never know… The one common denominator when I do these intakes and I speak to potential clients is they’re like, “I’m a whistleblower?”

 

[00:10:06] Jesse Weinstein: Like, they look at me like I’m crazy. I was like- … “You know, we’re not talking about blowing-” Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. He’s like, “But I worked at, you know, at a restaurant.” I was like, “Yeah, but, you know, it’s what, it’s the behavior that you’re pointing to.” And it’s- Right … and in New Jersey, New Jersey and New York, the, the laws are just so incredibly friendly towards employees.

 

[00:10:23] Jesse Weinstein: I mean, really, you can complain about anything and be a whistleblower. 

 

[00:10:26] Christina Phillips: Really? 

 

[00:10:27] Jesse Weinstein: And I won’t take any, any case just for any reason- Right, yeah … ’cause I, you know, I want to attack real problems- Right … and to make changes as an attorney, right? Mm-hmm. But, you know, I, I’ve seen cases where, like, someone’s complaining that the air is too cold, and they know that, that somebody has a, has immune problems that works under them, and then they get fired for it, right?

 

[00:10:44] Jesse Weinstein: I, I mean, it- Wow … there’s really creative ways you can use the statute- 

 

[00:10:47] Deirdre Arato: Right … 

 

[00:10:47] Jesse Weinstein: to find protections for these employers. 

 

[00:10:50] Christina Phillips: Interesting. 

 

[00:10:51] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. 

 

[00:10:51] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:10:51] Deirdre Arato: Wow. 

 

[00:10:52] Christina Phillips: I mean, I think there must be an element to being a whistleblower where you have an internal conflict. You wanna do the right thing, [00:11:00] but now you have a fear of you don’t wanna be the office snitch, or you don’t wanna be a tattletale or something.

 

[00:11:06] Christina Phillips: You know, and I would love to get both of your views. Jesse, how, how do you see this when people call you? Are they, are they… Do you see that they’re really sort of have inner turmoil about this sort of thing? 

 

[00:11:18] Jesse Weinstein: They do. Um, and a, and a lot of it is, is self-preservation of their careers, right? Anybody who works in a niche industry knows that the circles are small.

 

[00:11:26] Jesse Weinstein: You know, we call New York City the biggest little city on the planet ’cause you’ll bump into six people- Yeah, 

 

[00:11:30] Christina Phillips: so true. Yeah … 

 

[00:11:30] Jesse Weinstein: you know from your childhood in, in one week, right? Um, so when you take somebody who’s got, like, a highly technical job, like working at a financial institution specifically on one thing- If they have to sue because the, the company won’t pay them a, a respectable severance, they then have to put themselves out there.

 

[00:11:47] Jesse Weinstein: And then if there, if there are other organizations that unbeknownst to this, this client are doing the same thing, they’re not gonna touch that person with a 10-foot pole, and then they’re gonna be, you know, one month going by, two months, and then they [00:12:00] have to rethink their careers. And so that’s really the big, um, the big challenge with a lot of my clients is just, like, not what’s going on now.

 

[00:12:08] Jesse Weinstein: I can quit right now. It’s what’s next. 

 

[00:12:10] Christina Phillips: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense because then you also have potential, you know, employment gap, and then also, you know, how do you explain that or how do you explain why you’re leaving what could be potentially such a great job at a great place? And there are a lot of things that would go into that.

 

[00:12:24] Christina Phillips: And so I guess in your practice, you’re seeing a whole, like, identity, I mean, and then you said the guilt and- 

 

[00:12:31] Deirdre Arato: Right. It’s, it’s, it’s attacking y- As human beings, we all have this sense of wanting to belong, belong to a group, belong to a team, and so we have that in our workplace, right? So when that is challenged in realizing that there’s something y- really ethically going wrong here, it’s the threat of now not only their job, but also belonging to their team.

 

[00:12:57] Deirdre Arato: It’s this whole idea of, like, [00:13:00] loyalty. If your loyalty is silence, right? So, you know, let me keep quiet ’cause I, you know, this is my team. This is my, like I, I care for these people, and they have this deep connection in some ways as well as a professional connection. But- There’s something really going wrong here, and I’m about to just blow this all up.

 

[00:13:20] Deirdre Arato: Right, right. And then they, they lose not only who they are in their career, but also the friends that they made, and it’s like- Yeah, good point … because it’s, so it’s like it’s, it’s impacting not just- it’s, it’s a wh- total picture of what’s being impacted within people. 

 

[00:13:36] Jesse Weinstein: Totally losing friends. Yes. It’s such a good point, because it’s like- Yeah, I never 

 

[00:13:38] Deirdre Arato: even thought about that.

 

[00:13:39] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah … VP- if someone is a VP level and they’re blowing the whistle, and then, you know, somebody who they started with 10 years earlier- Yeah … knows that the same thing’s happening, but they wanna take a less aggressive approach about it, they’re gonna say, “Listen, friend. I, I love it, but I’m keeping, I’m keeping my distance because, you know, I’m, I don’t wanna be associated with this issue.

 

[00:13:56] Jesse Weinstein: I can’t. I’ve got a baby at home.” 

 

[00:13:57] Deirdre Arato: Right. You 

 

[00:13:58] Jesse Weinstein: know? And then they’re not invited. I’m a single parent. You know? 

 

[00:13:59] Deirdre Arato: [00:14:00] Right. They’re not invited to this party or that one. And, and it’s like, you know, so you’re losing not your- You’re like a pariah. Yeah. It’s- Kind of … it’s very challenging, and it’s v- it’s very sad because the ruminating that goes along with it, the self-doubt, maybe I should just keep my mouth shut.

 

[00:14:14] Deirdre Arato: This is, it’ll be easier if I keep my mouth shut. You know, the long-term consequences people don’t wanna deal with, so it’s easier for me to just shut up. 

 

[00:14:24] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. 

 

[00:14:24] Deirdre Arato: But you’re saying that typically whistleblowers have a characteristic where they’re like, “Gotta do the right thing.” 

 

[00:14:30] Jesse Weinstein: I think so. I, I think it, I think it takes a really certain type of person to stand up at work- It does

 

[00:14:35] Jesse Weinstein: and point something out. It takes a strong person, you know? Like if, if I, you know, I would feel nervous asking one of my bosses to change the, the printer tonering sometimes, depending on what the, you know, like- Right. You just never know- Yeah … how much pride somebody puts into being the leader- Mm-hmm … and doing things a certain way.

 

[00:14:49] Jesse Weinstein: I mean, I think what’s important to highlight also with these whistleblower claims is it doesn’t mean that these employers are, are being nefarious on purpose. Mm-hmm. There might be somebody who’s creating a problem [00:15:00] with the best of intentions, but guess what? It’s still illegal. Like, there, there’s an ex- there’s an example of that, right?

 

[00:15:05] Jesse Weinstein: Like, if you’re, if you are an organization that is trying to get Keep your shareholders Mm-hmm. Happy … you know, happy in a publicly held institution Mm-hmm … you know, you’re, you’re focusing on the messaging, even, you know, but you’re not looking at it so closely that they’re mi- the company’s actually misleading them.

 

[00:15:22] Jesse Weinstein: Because the people who are doing the messaging don’t know what’s happening behind the scenes with the numbers. Like the right hand doesn’t always talk to the left. Mm-hmm. And the person who’s doing the thing that is creating the problem doesn’t even know it. So- Right … it’s complicated. 

 

[00:15:34] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. 

 

[00:15:34] Christina Phillips: Yeah. So it doesn’t always sound like it’s a tattletale situation.

 

[00:15:38] Christina Phillips: You know what I’m saying? It sounds like in this instance, it’s, it’s this person who’s creating a potential problem has no idea. Yeah. And then the other person will know and has to then bring it to attention. So in a way, f- for the future benefit of people, I mean. I 

 

[00:15:55] Jesse Weinstein: mean, if you, if you… And I guess I’ll go back to the f- one of the first questions you asked, what [00:16:00] is a whistleblower, right?

 

[00:16:00] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:16:01] Jesse Weinstein: Um, a whistleblower does not, in New York or New Jersey, does not have to put something in writing and submit it to HR. 

 

[00:16:07] Christina Phillips: Oh, really? 

 

[00:16:08] Jesse Weinstein: A whistleblower can go out to co- uh, can go out for a coffee with their supervisor and say, “Hey, listen, uh, I just wanna put something on your radar. Um, I don’t think that what’s being conveyed to the shareholders is necessarily accurate.

 

[00:16:20] Jesse Weinstein: Happy to help, like, fix the narrative. I think maybe something’s missing here.” Totally not, like, pointed or I’m sending this up to the chief of HR. That’s a protected whistleblower complaint, depending on the thing that they’re talking about, and that’s enough. Now, proving that, ’cause that person could easily deny that the conversation happened.

 

[00:16:39] Jesse Weinstein: Right. So we look to other evidence like, you know, text messages, let’s go meet for coffee in 10 minutes so we can point, you know- Mm-hmm … to person, p- you know, the time, place, and everything. Um, but really, it doesn’t have to be a formal complaint in New York or New Jersey. It can be a verbal conversation like that, and then we measure the time between that conversation and when they’re first retaliated against.

 

[00:16:59] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. [00:17:00] Uh, whether it’s being iced from meetings, next thing you know, you’re being moved to a different team, doing something you don’t know how to do, and then you get an evaluation two months later saying that you weren’t doing a good job at this new job that you were given with no background. Mm-hmm. I mean, it’s, I, I can almost predict it- Really

 

[00:17:14] Jesse Weinstein: what’s gonna happen. It’s like a script- 

 

[00:17:15] Deirdre Arato: Wow. 

 

[00:17:16] Jesse Weinstein: That’s- … the way they do this. 

 

[00:17:17] Deirdre Arato: And you know what else I wanna bring up, too, that has, that just reminded me of something of, I have heard clients s- tell me in therapy, that they feel that if they do speak out, they’re gonna be seen as less competent 

 

[00:17:29] Jesse Weinstein: No. 

 

[00:17:30] Deirdre Arato: Do you see, see that?

 

[00:17:31] Jesse Weinstein: I do. I think that like, well, because we’re, we’re like the machismo, I, you know, I won’t make it gendered. I’ll ju- ’cause I, like the machismo or machisma- Yeah … however you wanna call it aspect is like vulnerability is a weakness. 

 

[00:17:42] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:17:42] Jesse Weinstein: Right? Like, like- That’s it … walking through it with, with your muscles flexed- Exactly

 

[00:17:47] Jesse Weinstein: is, is strength. But actually, vulnerability is strength. 

 

[00:17:50] Deirdre Arato: Right. 

 

[00:17:50] Jesse Weinstein: Right? Mm-hmm. And I, and I think that people, more and more people are realizing that in the climate- Yeah … that we’re dealing with, and people are coming forward in other types of cases and speaking out when they [00:18:00] have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

 

[00:18:02] Jesse Weinstein: Um… 

 

[00:18:02] Deirdre Arato: Yeah, I’ve noticed that men will not speak out. Right. Whereas women will, they’ll d- have that hesitation, but eventually they would speak out from my, from my client’s perspective. So I see with men, they are just like, “I’m not, I’m not gonna be,” you know. 

 

[00:18:18] Jesse Weinstein: There, there’s an archetype, right? I mean, like- Right

 

[00:18:20] Jesse Weinstein: if you, if you think about like high school, like there’s a, that’s where like, and even middle school, like the in crew. There’s an in crew everywhere- Mm-hmm … in every institution. 

 

[00:18:27] Deirdre Arato: Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah, like you were talking about that mafia mentality. Yeah. You don’t wanna be the rat. 

 

[00:18:31] Jesse Weinstein: Exactly. 

 

[00:18:32] Deirdre Arato: You don’t wanna be the rat.

 

[00:18:33] Jesse Weinstein: And un- unfortunately, the in crew in a lot of big institutions are, are like these groups of people who do what they want. They think they’re above the law. And by the way, you’re not gonna be in the in crew, and I’m gonna make sure that you know that- 

 

[00:18:44] Christina Phillips: Right … 

 

[00:18:44] Jesse Weinstein: if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna call things out that you- Yeah

 

[00:18:46] Jesse Weinstein: you shouldn’t be. 

 

[00:18:48] Christina Phillips: What are some of the ways that you’ve seen that they’ve retaliated against a whistleblower? You know, thinking, I guess, that they could get away with it or just getting rid of a person or… Just give us some examples. [00:19:00] 

 

[00:19:00] Jesse Weinstein: Sure. So it, it operates on a spectrum, right? And, and ’cause again, in, in New York and New Jersey, very plaintiff-friendly ra- laws on what constitutes retaliation.

 

[00:19:09] Jesse Weinstein: We have a concept called adverse employment action, um, in employment world, and that’s, that’s in every state, right? That means you got fired, you got suspended, you got demoted. Um, and those are the b- you know, the Mount Rushmore of how can I retaliate against somebody at work, right? But actually, there’s so much more micro level stuff that constitutes retaliation.

 

[00:19:26] Christina Phillips: Insidious, like microaggressions. 

 

[00:19:28] Jesse Weinstein: Exactly. It’s an escalation. You know? Mm-hmm. The first thing’s a dirty look. I know that that sounds like really detailed, but that’s the question I ask. I’m like, “Okay, so what was the response?” “Well, I eventually got fired.” “Well, let’s slow it down- Mm-hmm … and let’s unpack that.

 

[00:19:39] Jesse Weinstein: I’m talking about the conversation when you were sitting there with the coffee. What was his body language like?” 

 

[00:19:44] Deirdre Arato: The subtle… 

 

[00:19:44] Jesse Weinstein: Right. Did he- Yeah … did he look like he just like swallowed something down the wrong tube? Like, honestly. Mm-hmm. Like, there’s a visceral reaction- Mm-hmm … when they have these conversations, and it usually foreshadows what’s gonna happen afterwards.

 

[00:19:54] Jesse Weinstein: You get the compassionate response that’s like, “Oh my gosh. Like, let me… I appreciate you telling me that.” [00:20:00] Or you get the- Wow. Let me process that for a second and I’ll- Right … I’ll, I’ll get back to you. And then, then there’s like the break, and then it’s like, “Oh, we don’t need you to come to this meeting,” or, or this meeting happened.

 

[00:20:11] Jesse Weinstein: And, you know, it, it’s very, very coded. Uh, or they’ll even just be like, you know, when somebody’s mad at you or you can- we all know this from life experience. Like, it’s not complicated. Mm-hmm. You know when somebody’s mad at you or somebody doesn’t really wanna be around you. They start to see that from their peers, which is what you were talking about earlier.

 

[00:20:26] Jesse Weinstein: Right. And then, and then it escalates into like, their bosses are getting short fused with them on, on conversations that happened over and over again before they com- you know, complained about certain things. Mm-hmm. And then next thing you know, they get an evaluation and they’re like, they’re not… Then they blame our clients for not communicating effectively.

 

[00:20:44] Jesse Weinstein: And, and then once they start paper trailing the bad evaluations- Right … then they can put you on a performance improvement plan. Mm-hmm. I mean, they’re, they’re smartening up- Right … defense attorneys. They know that if one of my clients is gonna put in writing that, you know, something, something’s not being done [00:21:00] above ground, and then they get fired two weeks later, the, you know, there’s gonna be a problem.

 

[00:21:04] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. That, that, that’s just a fact that’s going to hurt any company, whether the company’s right or wrong. 

 

[00:21:09] Christina Phillips: But how do the companies not know this ? 

 

[00:21:11] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. 

 

[00:21:12] Christina Phillips: How ? Yeah. 

 

[00:21:13] Jesse Weinstein: I mean, like, because they don’t ta- you know, it’s easy to give advice. It’s not always easy to take it. Mm-hmm. Some of the smartest defense attorneys in the country are advising their clients that, you know, they shouldn’t light the barn on fire while they’re inside of it.

 

[00:21:25] Deirdre Arato: Right. 

 

[00:21:25] Jesse Weinstein: But there’s always somebody who will. 

 

[00:21:27] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:21:27] Jesse Weinstein: There’s always one person who will light that barn on fire while they’re standing inside of it. They would much rather tear the whole thing down- Mm … than to actually- Be like, look at what they’re doing and- Right … and, ’cause it’s just as tough for the person being accused- Right

 

[00:21:40] Jesse Weinstein: to swallow that they’re doing something wrong. 

 

[00:21:42] Deirdre Arato: Right. Right. 

 

[00:21:43] Jesse Weinstein: And it’s, uh, it’s so different than… And I don’t wanna go on too much of a tangent, but like I think of like a sexual harassment case, right? Where singular issue in most times a partner will, you know, partner sexually harassing a, an associate at a law firm, and then like it’s easy to attack that problem as an institution.

 

[00:21:59] Jesse Weinstein: But if [00:22:00] I’m saying, “Hey, this, this employ- this client of mine is saying that a Fortune 500 company is using an algorithm that unilaterally, like, gets rid of people with disabilities or, or, you know, who are of marginalized populations,” now you’ve just accused the whole company of, of not doing something the right way.

 

[00:22:18] Jesse Weinstein: And people seem to sink their claws in more and get more defensive in those cases ’cause they can’t make a partner who’s sexually harassing somebody the scapegoat. They can’t say, “You’re the problem. He’s out. We did the right thing.” Mm-hmm. Now they’ve gotta sort of like make the stew all over again. 

 

[00:22:32] Christina Phillips: Yeah.

 

[00:22:33] Christina Phillips: So then they’ll get rid of the lesser of them- 

 

[00:22:36] Jesse Weinstein: Right … 

 

[00:22:36] Christina Phillips: person. ‘

 

[00:22:37] Jesse Weinstein: Cause that’s easier. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause it’s usually not one person’s decision to, you know, mislead 10,000 shareholders. Right. Right? It, it’s usually you pop the hood open either… It’s not like somebody just decided, “I’m gonna go to work and do something corrupt today.”

 

[00:22:50] Jesse Weinstein: Usually, people act in patterns of behavior, which I know- Mm-hmm … you can speak to. 

 

[00:22:54] Christina Phillips: Yes. 

 

[00:22:55] Jesse Weinstein: But organizations do also. 

 

[00:22:56] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:22:57] Jesse Weinstein: The same type of organization that’s willing to sweep [00:23:00] financials under the rug is probably doing similar things that, you know, are distant cousins, you know, in different ways. Yeah. 

 

[00:23:05] Christina Phillips: Yeah, I mean, there’s tons and tons of fraud out there as we’re learning, you know?

 

[00:23:09] Christina Phillips: And, um, I mean, it’s, it’s always… We always have had it, but, you know, s- when things come to light, I guess, uh, I, you know- What happens to the person who brought it to light? It’s just they’ve gone through so much, you know? And 

 

[00:23:26] Jesse Weinstein: We, and we have to get them outcomes in the case that are going to not just carry them to their next job oftentimes, right?

 

[00:23:32] Jesse Weinstein: What is somebody who’s, who’s in their, in their 60s, um, who has been with an organization for 20-something years, who gets, who gets fired going to do? 

 

[00:23:42] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. 

 

[00:23:42] Jesse Weinstein: They’re gonna be too expensive to hire in most places and/or the, the places that they’re trying to work will… or if they have to file their case before, will know that they’re damaged goods, that this is a person who’s gonna put a flashlight on something potentially we don’t wanna see.

 

[00:23:54] Jesse Weinstein: Mm. Um, and so it, it puts them in a really, really challenging position. But [00:24:00] a- as a plaintiff’s attorney, one thing I always sink my teeth into i- is that patterns of behavior thing, right? Tell me where the bodies are. You’re in the, you’re in the C-suite- 

 

[00:24:08] Christina Phillips: Yeah. I mean, I guess if one person, you know, s- talked about it, then there must be other people that know about it.

 

[00:24:13] Christina Phillips: Do you try to get them in just so that you can back it up? 

 

[00:24:16] Jesse Weinstein: I do. Uh, but, like, oftentimes with one specific type of whistleblower case, meaning, like, executive-level people who are complaining about these things, they have such proximity to the operations of an organization, it’s easy to get evidence of what’s going on.

 

[00:24:31] Jesse Weinstein: Ah. You know? It’s easy to collect the evidence, but also they know where other things have happened before. That’s why I said, “Show me where the bodies are buried,” because what, like, I’m not trying to make company ABC change their whole philosophy. You just can’t change that. You’re not gonna… You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig at the end of the day.

 

[00:24:48] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. An organization’s just gonna get rid of one problem and figure out How to move forward. Um, but like with, with a situation like that, uh, you know, I’m looking for where the bodies are. Who can I give heartburn? With the [00:25:00] existence of this case, honestly- Yeah … it’s a human level, it’s a human level thing.

 

[00:25:03] Jesse Weinstein: But 

 

[00:25:03] Christina Phillips: like- No, I love the fact that you’re passionate about it. Yeah. I love it. Because it’s like you really like wanna like- Yeah … just do the right thing and help those people, which is amazing. Um, I’d love to hear more about some of your cases- Yeah … if you can share. 

 

[00:25:15] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. 

 

[00:25:16] Christina Phillips: You know? 

 

[00:25:16] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. Uh, you know, ob- obviously the confidential ones, we use pseudonyms.

 

[00:25:20] Jesse Weinstein: Of 

 

[00:25:20] Christina Phillips: course, of course. 

 

[00:25:20] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. But, you know, and I keep talking financial institution, financial institution, and these are organizations that implicate the entire world. Mm-hmm. Literally the entire world. Like, they c- they’re changing the global economy. 

 

[00:25:31] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. Wow. 

 

[00:25:32] Jesse Weinstein: And there are three or four people making decisions that implicate the whole entire world, literally.

 

[00:25:37] Deirdre Arato: Wow. 

 

[00:25:37] Jesse Weinstein: And so you have, I’ve- Major … I’ve had a case where one such organization that is literally could change the economy in one day. That’s how, that’s how important this organization was. Um, my client was maybe in the top 20 of this organization- Mm-hmm … of tens of thousands of people, and was just seeing that numbers were being misreported to the Fed and to the federal government.[00:26:00] 

 

[00:26:00] Jesse Weinstein: And so, and, and really to your point earlier, what’s really making these clients hurt and c- creating distress, the question is like, this implicates me. 

 

[00:26:08] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s a good point. 

 

[00:26:09] Jesse Weinstein: The higher up on the flagpole I am, the- Yeah … the more people are looking at what I’m doing. And there’s so much manipulation going on, that a savvy lawyer on the other side could say, “Hey, guess what?

 

[00:26:19] Jesse Weinstein: You’re, you’re guys in the sandbox too.” 

 

[00:26:20] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:26:21] Jesse Weinstein: Um, and so, you know, that, that’s a lot. You know, I’ve had case, like where this guy’s noticing that we have not, are not just lying to the government, but we’ve been lying to the government for a long time. And those lies are what have gotten the shareholders to keep sticking with us.

 

[00:26:36] Deirdre Arato: Right. High, high- So there’s a lot at risk here … 

 

[00:26:38] Jesse Weinstein: high net worth individuals are, are planting their, you know, planting their seeds where they think that they’re gonna be well off. And so when you get a letter from Jesse Weinstein on one of these cases alleging that, you know, whistleblower retaliation, all of a sudden, you know, things start happening to our client.

 

[00:26:56] Jesse Weinstein: People, you know, they start seeing cars parked in front of their apartment. They start getting, [00:27:00] you know- Ooh, wow … I mean, like w- when you deal with really, really- It’s a stir … it really is. It’s like a movie. Yeah. It, you know, I mean, like- 

 

[00:27:06] Christina Phillips: This is a whole- Right … another level of- Yeah … you know. Well, then also, but so like let’s say your client, this high level financial institution, they’re belong- But they’ve, they have had to participate in some of this, let’s call it corruption.

 

[00:27:20] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. You know, they’ve been with this company, let’s say, for 20 years. Are they going to be in trouble themselves for, let’s say it’s, you know, cr- If it could border on criminal, let’s just say, could they be then- 

 

[00:27:35] Jesse Weinstein: In my e- so in my experience, I guess on paper, technically there’s a world where there could be consequences to them on some level, right?

 

[00:27:42] Jesse Weinstein: But pragmatically speaking, and, and this is how I advise my clients in those roles, like I’ll take a case where there’s dirty hands on both sides- 

 

[00:27:49] Christina Phillips: You will … 

 

[00:27:50] Jesse Weinstein: any day of the week because it’s still not a defense to what they’re doing. 

 

[00:27:53] Christina Phillips: Okay. 

 

[00:27:53] Jesse Weinstein: Even, even if this person Was, was, was part of the decision that led to some of the [00:28:00] problem.

 

[00:28:00] Jesse Weinstein: Okay. Even if there’s a, an, a rationalization to it, it doesn’t change the fact that they fi- you know, and they fired him for complaining about it. 

 

[00:28:07] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:28:07] Jesse Weinstein: And this is what I’m always constantly doing on these cases in court and private mediations and negotiations. What they try to do, these organizations, is immediately exonerate themselves from the problem.

 

[00:28:19] Jesse Weinstein: They try to separate themselves and prove that what they’re doing is not illegal. But that’s not the point of the actual statute. Mm-hmm. A whistleblower statute is not about fixing the company. It’s about protecting employees who stand up- 

 

[00:28:31] Christina Phillips: For the 

 

[00:28:31] Deirdre Arato: right thing … 

 

[00:28:32] Jesse Weinstein: we wanna… That, that’s, that’s it. Right. There’s no other explanation for a whistleblower statute except for you need recourse if you point to unethical or illegal activity.

 

[00:28:41] Christina Phillips: I mean, it makes total sense because oth- otherwise, if there is no protection, how are they gonna… Don’t… Nobody will ever speak up about anything. Well, most people don’t trust that the system is going to do the 

 

[00:28:51] Deirdre Arato: right thing, and that’s why they hesitate. 

 

[00:28:53] Jesse Weinstein: Right. Yeah. 

 

[00:28:54] Deirdre Arato: So that’s, that’s the problem, too. 

 

[00:28:57] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. And we, we, you know, I’ll go to these private [00:29:00] mediations where we’re there to try and resolve a case and, you know, like the like cockroaches, they have 20 attorneys there with 50 binders and 10,000 pieces of paper.

 

[00:29:07] Jesse Weinstein: And I’m, “I don’t really care about your company’s algorithm, man.” You know? Yeah. Like, I’m, I’m here to figure out, did you punish him because he said something? Mm-hmm. Right? And I can… And I try to convince the jury, or I try to convince the mediator, like, “Hey, we’re, like, we’re keeping this on the rails. This is a simple case.

 

[00:29:21] Jesse Weinstein: Like, my five-year-old could do this if I tell her what to say.” Right. That’s how… I’m, I’m just the messenger. Right. These email, this email is the case. The time, you know, the measurement of time is the case. 

 

[00:29:29] Christina Phillips: So it’s the statute that is protecting the whistleblower. That’s right. And that is what you will defend- 

 

[00:29:35] Jesse Weinstein: Right

 

[00:29:35] Christina Phillips: when you- 

 

[00:29:35] Jesse Weinstein: Exactly. I tell, I tell the younger attorneys on my team who are also taking these, these whistleblower cases that, you know, like, your job is not to prove the corruption. Your job’s to prove that it was reasonable for our clients to think that something corrupt was happening, right? Because you can’t have a, a, like, a, a janitor at a hospital saying that he thinks a, a cardio surgeon is not doing something the right way during a procedure.

 

[00:29:57] Jesse Weinstein: It has to make sense. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It has to make logical… [00:30:00] It has to be reasonable in that context. But our, our job is actually much more singular in those cases than- 

 

[00:30:04] Christina Phillips: Interesting … 

 

[00:30:05] Jesse Weinstein: you know, less complicated. Right. 

 

[00:30:07] Christina Phillips: So how would a person prove that they were fired for whistleblowing instead of, you know, like, let’s say they started to get the bad performance reviews, and you think it was sort of like, you know, the company was trying to, like, set the stage so that it wasn’t the whistleblowing that was the cause of a future termination.

 

[00:30:26] Christina Phillips: Right. How, how do you, what do you advise the, the client to do? 

 

[00:30:30] Jesse Weinstein: Right. So i- in a scenario where a client’s come to me and are, and have, has already been fired, right? Um- It, it’s pretty easy to prove just by looking at the timelines, right? There’s, it’s a line segment. Dot one is when did you complain, dot two is when were you fired, and the, the longer that line segment is, uh, the less retaliatory it seems, right?

 

[00:30:49] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and, and actually every act of retaliation is that line segment. One thing I do wanna highlight to that point is proof. Mm-hmm. Right? In a, in a criminal case, um, [00:31:00] the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. Mm-hmm. Which is a very, very high burden of proof. You really… And, and understandable.

 

[00:31:05] Jesse Weinstein: People’s freedom is on the line. Mm-hmm. The, the accused, you know, could be facing incarceration. Of course. Yeah. You gotta get as close to 100% as you can. Mm-hmm. Beyond a reasonable doubt’s not 100%, but you gotta be pretty close. 

 

[00:31:16] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:31:16] Jesse Weinstein: Um, in the civil world, in the civil whistleblower context, it’s called preponderance of the evidence.

 

[00:31:21] Jesse Weinstein: But- Mm-hmm … I just gotta get to 51%. I can still get an F like it’s on a math test and still prove that they were fired. 

 

[00:31:27] Christina Phillips: You’re right. 

 

[00:31:27] Jesse Weinstein: And that, and that’s what I tell a jury during these trials. 

 

[00:31:29] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:31:30] Jesse Weinstein: I don’t have to, to show you a high-def video with perfect sound- Mm-hmm … of somebody firing you. 

 

[00:31:36] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:31:36] Jesse Weinstein: With a, with a date that happens to be on the calendar in the background.

 

[00:31:39] Jesse Weinstein: Like, all I have to do is show a jury, like, “Hey, more likely than not, I’m 51% sure this guy was fired because of the email he sent.” Mm-hmm. “And how am I gonna prove that? We’re gonna look at how fa- how long after that email. We’re g- not just that he was fired, but how long after that email were you iced from the first meeting?”

 

[00:31:55] Christina Phillips: How long in your experience does it take for somebody to get fired after [00:32:00] they’ve, you know- 

 

[00:32:01] Jesse Weinstein: S- I- i- it dep- it depends on the, uh, you know, the emotional stability of the institution, right? If there is a real high player up top who’s an ego-centric type- Right … it could be within 15 seconds, which, you know, as a plaintiff’s attorney, you’re drooling over facts like that, right?

 

[00:32:16] Jesse Weinstein: Exactly. They’re fewer and far be- Like that, yeah … yeah, they’re fewer and far between. Some of the best I’ve seen are, are like, you know, two or three weeks. Um, a- and you do see that sometimes on a case like this. Right. Really high level, because there are financial disclosures that get made quarterly, and maybe you’re pressed up on one of those deadlines where they’re about to tell the world something.

 

[00:32:35] Jesse Weinstein: Um, and so, like, it’s, they’ll, the case may settle in, in six days or something if I, you know, when I get a… I, I’ve settled the case for seven figures in, in a couple weeks- Wow … in a few phone calls, because- Mm-hmm … putting aside the merits, the, the practical reality of it is, hey, we gotta make these financial disclosures soon, and we gotta get an NDA signed.

 

[00:32:53] Jesse Weinstein: Um, and but sometimes, and, and often now, these defense attorneys are stretching it out. Okay. They’re advising their clients from [00:33:00] behind the scenes. Because they know. 

 

[00:33:00] Christina Phillips: They know. “

 

[00:33:01] Jesse Weinstein: Hey, you can’t fire this guy.” 

 

[00:33:02] Christina Phillips: Right. “

 

[00:33:03] Jesse Weinstein: We gotta, we gotta document everything. If he even sneezes in a way that, that feels like it’s inappropriate, we’re gonna write him up for it.

 

[00:33:09] Jesse Weinstein: Um, you know, we’re gonna give him, you know…” Mm-hmm. And once you start getting to that three, four, five, six month since the complaint, um, timeline, you’re really getting away from the retaliation. 

 

[00:33:20] Christina Phillips: But I think, though, like, it, for, to your point, it, if now, you know, they sneeze, now they’re getting wr- you, you know, i- 

 

[00:33:27] Deirdre Arato: i- You see, and I wanna bring that up, because that’s when a lot of people will come into therapy at this point, because they are so mentally exhausted from being watched- Mm-hmm

 

[00:33:38] Deirdre Arato: and criticized. So at this point, they’re looking to leave the job. They’d rather just quit, because they are under so much pressure and anxiety. They can’t sleep at night. So they’re, they’re afraid to even pursue anything, because it’s like, a- again, that fear of the unknown. What’s going to happen? Right. So here’s a question that I have for you.

 

[00:33:59] Deirdre Arato: So what [00:34:00] would you tell somebody that, um, h- is in this situation that they… I, I, should I quit? Should I, sh- do I have a case? And how long is it gonna take for me? Because sometimes that process in itself is enough to make the person not even want to go through it. 

 

[00:34:16] Jesse Weinstein: Right. Right. A- it’s uncomfortable, right?

 

[00:34:19] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. So, like, there’s alwa- there’s… A- and I have this conversation in every one of my types of cases, right? There’s a, there’s the best legal decision, and the best personal decision. Mm-hmm. And they’re not always the same. Mm-hmm. Right. Like, it, it, you know, if I’ve got a client who’s got a heart condition, who’s, who’s, you know, who, who can’t stomach what it takes to actually make his case the best what it can be from a legal perspective, quitting might be the answer.

 

[00:34:41] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. All I a- what I tell my clients is, “All I can advise you is, is what’s gonna make your case the strongest from a legal perspective? It’s up to you and your family to decide what that means for you.” Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. But if you’ve said something verbally- And it’s been a month, and now you’re being iced from a meeting, and there’s nothing really else that’s gone on.[00:35:00] 

 

[00:35:00] Jesse Weinstein: That’s a tough, that’s a tough, you know, thing to prove. Yeah. You really need more facts than that. So we, we will help nav- help our clients navigate while they’re still there. And it… And we gotta make them know that they have to get uncomfortable. Like, “Hey, listen, I’m happy to be your, your lawyer now and, and get you through this, but it might mean you need to put something in writing to somebody very high level and be very specific so that they know exactly what you’re talking about.”

 

[00:35:23] Jesse Weinstein: ‘Cause the minute they press send- Yeah … it’s, it’s a you-know-what storm. Oh. Whether they get fired or not- I know. And that’s- … the minute that email, you know- 

 

[00:35:30] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. That’s the reality … it’s a bomb. Yeah. And it… Most people are very terrified. I know from when they’re in therapy, they’re just… It’s not worth it. 

 

[00:35:38] Jesse Weinstein: And, and, and you look at…

 

[00:35:39] Jesse Weinstein: And I, and I don’t wanna get too much into, like, generations, Millennials, Baby Boomers, Gen Z, Gen X, all the gens. Mm-hmm. But generational, um, trauma and passing down is, like, a real thing. Oh, yeah. Totally. Oh, yeah. And generational practices, not even trauma. Mm-hmm. But generational practices. Yes, yes. Right? The, the Baby Boomer generation, for example, makes up a lot of my, my clientele, who are, like, high, [00:36:00] high-level executives at these big companies and who unmysteriously grew up in houses where, you know, they went to work, worked hard, stayed at the same company for 173 years you know, like- 

 

[00:36:09] Christina Phillips: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense- Yeah

 

[00:36:09] Christina Phillips: ’cause you’re like, “When somebody’s with a job for 25 years,” I was like, “Does that still happen?” 

 

[00:36:13] Jesse Weinstein: No. You- these Gen Z… I mean credit to these Gen Z employees in the workplace. Yeah. They’ll graduate college and then be like after two months, first job out of college, “You know what? I’m over it. I’m gonna move on to something else.”

 

[00:36:22] Jesse Weinstein: I would be ter- I’m, I’m, I’m an older Millennial, but I would… I was terrified about gaps on my resume. 

 

[00:36:28] Deirdre Arato: Well, yeah. Yeah. 

 

[00:36:28] Jesse Weinstein: There was just a rule, you know. So you have these, these people who are but whistleblowers at these big companies at the very top, like, have been there for a long time because it’s ingrained in them that you’re supposed to just, like, stay in one place until you turn- Yes

 

[00:36:41] Jesse Weinstein: into a pile of dust. Yeah. 

 

[00:36:42] Christina Phillips: Yeah. No, that’s, that’s the old way, for sure. You 

 

[00:36:44] Deirdre Arato: know? 

 

[00:36:45] Christina Phillips: But the thing is is that if they, you know, blow the whistle and nothing is done, um, let’s just say if it’s… Like, they, there’s a situation, they blow the whistle, nothing’s done, they stay And then they, you know, [00:37:00] what happens? I mean, then like what if nothing is done?

 

[00:37:03] Christina Phillips: Do, uh, do they feel comfortable staying? Do they- 

 

[00:37:06] Jesse Weinstein: Uh, in my experience, something always happens. 

 

[00:37:10] Christina Phillips: Something always happens. 

 

[00:37:10] Jesse Weinstein: Humans are humans. If there is somebody who’s unhappy that somebody complained, they’re just not gonna be able to turn it off. Mm-hmm. They’re just not. They’re not gonna be able to unsee the person who ratted them out to HR.

 

[00:37:21] Christina Phillips: Okay. 

 

[00:37:21] Jesse Weinstein: Or not even, you know, who they think who’s calling them rats. I never, not ratted out, but you know what I mean. Right, right, 

 

[00:37:27] Deirdre Arato: right. Yeah, there’s 

 

[00:37:27] Jesse Weinstein: some courses that sort of like- They’re called rats by the people- Right … who ratted. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, but they, they, you know, they are…

 

[00:37:32] Jesse Weinstein: The, but there are some plaintiffs, some of my clients who are like, “All right. You wanna get uncomfortable? Let’s get uncomfortable. I’ll stay here. I’ll complain about it.” There are some people who have, on the other side of the coin, like, like your clients who are, who are devastated and terrified, they’re on the other side of the coin.

 

[00:37:47] Jesse Weinstein: There, there are people who are like, “All right. You know what? You, you can’t kill a dead soul. I’ve got nothing else to lose.” Yeah. “I’ll sit here, I’ll complain, I’ll fight, I’ll go to court. I will t- I’ll go to my deposition.” Mm-hmm. Like, that’s fine. Um, so it’s a mix, mixed [00:38:00] bag, but a lot of them are, are in the former bag, which are terrified people who- Yeah.

 

[00:38:04] Deirdre Arato: Right, that have a whole bunch of other problems within their life, and this is just another, another 

 

[00:38:09] Christina Phillips: thing to add. No, but by the same token, when that happens, if they are so afraid to speak up, you know, before they speak up, they speak up, and then they see, you know, the company then sees this person is fired or they’re moved or they’re demoted or whatever the case may be, that’s gonna make it so much harder for somebody else to speak up.

 

[00:38:25] Christina Phillips: You know, that was… That’s why I was thinking like, well, what if nothing really changes, you know? ‘Cause now let’s say the person gets fired. Now, who’s gonna, you know, come up next and- I 

 

[00:38:34] Jesse Weinstein: mean, you, you brought up a really good point just now, which is that company practice is like its own language. 

 

[00:38:39] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:38:40] Jesse Weinstein: It’s, it’s a communication.

 

[00:38:42] Jesse Weinstein: Like, companies communicate through their practices. 

 

[00:38:44] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:38:44] Jesse Weinstein: They like subtly… Like, and, and I, listen, I do this on a level. Like, um, not retaliate against my people, but I mean- … like I, I com- Like, if I see that one person is doing something that could be done better, but I don’t wanna to, um, to isolate [00:39:00] that person or hurt that person’s confidence- Mm-hmm

 

[00:39:01] Jesse Weinstein: then I’ll s- I’ll email the whole team- Mm-hmm … about a best practice that can be better. Right. Right? Mm-hmm. That’s a microcosm of how companies function. Like, they, they will communicate in the same way. One person complains that, you know, there, there something illegal is happening, then a ma- a mass policy all of a sudden comes out of nowhere that kind of obstructs people from complaining in a way.

 

[00:39:20] Jesse Weinstein: Like for… I’ve seen this before, uh, in this a- in this actual case, not… And we use this against them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We, we use the fact that they’re fixing the fence to show, you know, like- 

 

[00:39:29] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. 

 

[00:39:29] Jesse Weinstein: But they send out an email that looked like on its face they were addressing the situation, but the company policy was that they created a whole entire unit to field specific types of complaint.

 

[00:39:40] Jesse Weinstein: But I mean, in my mind I’m like, you can’t be asked to be asked, right? Like, I know what you’re doing. You’re trying to distance this from the C-suite. You’re creating a whole other unit so that they can, so that they can sort of quarantine- Mm-hmm … the issue and then navigate around it. Because if they don’t know about it, then they’re, they’re not implicated, is what they say.

 

[00:39:58] Christina Phillips: Or they can quarantine the person [00:40:00] complaining. 

 

[00:40:00] Jesse Weinstein: Exactly. Either/or. Yeah. Sounds like a little bit more, you know. If they can’t outright shove them out, you know- Yeah, 

 

[00:40:04] Christina Phillips: exactly … into the cold. 

 

[00:40:05] Deirdre Arato: So Jesse, tell me, if a person does quit their job because the pressure is too much, how does that impact them from a legal standpoint?

 

[00:40:11] Jesse Weinstein: Uh, it could be critical for their case, to be honest. Because again, it might be a, it might be a scenario where we’ve just sort of scratched the surface of what may be a whistleblower complaint. Mm. Right? Um, if we don’t have more retaliation than just a bad look and a, and, and a changed, uh, you know, tone in someone’s voice, that’s a really, really hard obstacle to overcome.

 

[00:40:32] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. And, and it ties to this other principle, like, where there’s a difference between what’s best personally and what’s legally right. There’s a difference between the truth and what you can prove. The truth, I w- I don’t wanna say the truth doesn’t matter, but it doesn’t actually in a trial context.

 

[00:40:46] Jesse Weinstein: It’s all about what you can prove. It’s all about the story that the evidence tells, and they’re never usually the same thing. It’s much easier to prove someone complained if there’s an email. 

 

[00:40:54] Christina Phillips: Okay. 

 

[00:40:55] Jesse Weinstein: But even though in truth, I know that there was something that was said- 

 

[00:40:58] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm … 

 

[00:40:58] Jesse Weinstein: that could be, that should [00:41:00] trigger protections.

 

[00:41:01] Christina Phillips: So that verbal piece is just really, really hard to nail down, it sounds like. 

 

[00:41:05] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. 

 

[00:41:05] Christina Phillips: I mean, that’s I think the same in a lot of these things that we’ve been hearing. It’s a he sa- he said, she said type of situation. So, you know, short of, you know, taping it, which now in this day and age, we know that that is possible, and a lot of people do do that.

 

[00:41:19] Christina Phillips: Do you find that that helps to, to really, you know, if somebody’s taping or? 

 

[00:41:23] Jesse Weinstein: Absolutely. One, 1000%. And, and by the way, as a, as an attorney, I won’t tr- I, I won’t stop pursuing a case if somebody quits, you know, um, at the 10-yard line, uh, you know, like at the wrong side of the 10-yard line. Like, um, because if I know that the thing is happening- Mm-hmm

 

[00:41:40] Jesse Weinstein: that they’re complaining about- Mm-hmm … I’m gonna hit it with a sledgehammer. I don’t really, uh, a- and I hate to say this, but like, it actually becomes less about I’m gonna prove A, B, C as the elements in my case. I’m looking at the leverage. I’m like, okay, here’s a person who, who’s holding this bombshell.

 

[00:41:54] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. Who has proof that the numbers are being fudged. Let them quit. I won’t advise them to do [00:42:00] it ’cause the case could be stronger, but you know, if I can put together something that’s not gonna get dismissed the moment I file it in court, which is a very, very easy thing to do, then I’m in business. Mm-hmm.

 

[00:42:10] Jesse Weinstein: Even if they quit. I’m gonna call it a constructive discharge, which is what… The, the principle of quitting because it’s just so much- 

 

[00:42:16] Christina Phillips: Toxic … 

 

[00:42:16] Jesse Weinstein: it is called a constructive termination. Mm-hmm. And that’s a high, high bar, um, in discrimination cases oddly, but it’s a less higher bar in whistleblower cases in New Jersey and New York.

 

[00:42:27] Jesse Weinstein: Oh. It’s actually… There, there’s good case law out there, um, that says that, you know, if you’re harassed to a certain extent after complaining, and you qu- you know, and it’s so much stress, um, you can quit. Like my, my… I actually, one of my other clients did quit because of, of a PI that was sh- a priv- private investigator who was showing up.

 

[00:42:45] Christina Phillips: Really? 

 

[00:42:46] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. He… I don’t want the cars parked up outside my house, and we were still able to get this person a good result. But that That’s the essence of constructive termination. That is forcing somebody out. I’m gonna send a, a, you know, a, a veteran retired FBI agent or, or [00:43:00] cop who’s now a PI to just sit in front of your home 

 

[00:43:02] Christina Phillips: Well, now would that be like sort of intimidation, or would that just be they’re looking for something on the person?

 

[00:43:08] Christina Phillips: Like, you know, what- 

 

[00:43:09] Jesse Weinstein: It’s 100% intimidation- It’s, yeah … in my view. I, I’ve worked with w- I’ve… There are wonderful PIs out there and, and, and w- one huge firm with which we work all the time, and they act with integrity. But there are also PIs who are retained on the other side. And this is, for some reason, the knee-jerk reaction of the most powerful in our country is, “I’m gonna, like, weaponize a PI to ruin somebody.”

 

[00:43:30] Jesse Weinstein: You know, to not get too far off tangent, if you watch these Epstein documentaries, one of these survivors had a PI parked right in front of her house- Yeah … when she was a teenager with the brights- 

 

[00:43:39] Deirdre Arato: Right … 

 

[00:43:39] Jesse Weinstein: shining 

 

[00:43:39] Deirdre Arato: into her office Yes, yes. I remember that, yes. 

 

[00:43:41] Jesse Weinstein: A subtle, a subtle thing where her physical safety might not have been in jeopardy, but enough to make anybody go crazy.

 

[00:43:47] Deirdre Arato: Of course. 

 

[00:43:48] Jesse Weinstein: You 

 

[00:43:48] Deirdre Arato: know? Yeah, see, and that’s the part that I think that we, that, that as a society we need to really highlight, is that the men- the, the toll that it takes on somebody’s mental health as well as their physical health now. That’s true. You know, [00:44:00] we’re talking legal things, right? Like, you know, we can sue, we could do this.

 

[00:44:02] Deirdre Arato: But, you know, w- what it, what it’s doing to people mentally and physically, it, it’s destroying people’s lives. 

 

[00:44:11] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t think anybody could really p- like appreciate… Anybody who’s never been fired before, like I don’t think we can appreciate the trauma of what it means to get fired from a job.

 

[00:44:20] Jesse Weinstein: Right. Even, even if you’re 16 and you’re working at Dun- you know, like- Mm-hmm … you know, like a fast food place, you know, and you get fired, it feels really, really terrible I’m sure- Yeah, I can imagine … to like end up in that place. So, like, when you, i- in the context of becoming a special ed teacher, and getting a master’s degree, and working for 20-something years in the same school, and, and being a fixture in the institution, and then getting fired, like of course that’s enough to completely traumatize somebody.

 

[00:44:43] Christina Phillips: 100%. 

 

[00:44:43] Jesse Weinstein: Because then you don’t trust anybody. 

 

[00:44:45] Christina Phillips: Nope. 

 

[00:44:45] Jesse Weinstein: That’s the other part of it, is the trust issues. Right. It’s sort of like, you know, like be- you know, like you, you don’t know who you can trust. You might have a boss at your next job that you love- Mm … but you don’t know if that person’s gonna turn on you- 

 

[00:44:57] Deirdre Arato: Right.

 

[00:44:57] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm … 

 

[00:44:57] Jesse Weinstein: if they, if they’re forced to act with their own [00:45:00] integrity. 

 

[00:45:00] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. It’s a lonely place to be. 

 

[00:45:02] Jesse Weinstein: To, to be a whistle- a successful whistleblower who doesn’t get retaliated against at a high-level job, it means that everybody has to be behaved to the very top, and that just doesn’t happen. Yeah. It just doesn’t.

 

[00:45:12] Christina Phillips: Seemingly, uh, from, you know, watching the news, it just doesn’t. Yeah. There’s just- Well- It’s out there, so I guess my next question would be, if somebody has been working at a company for a, certainly a length of time, and they’ve been seeing this bad behavior go on, and they know they wanna say something, what should they be doing to prepare?

 

[00:45:33] Jesse Weinstein: Documenting themselves. And, and honestly, like, I can call a companion case, this finance case I just talked about, I had almost- Mm-hmm … an identical fact pattern. Lying to the government, high-level person, huge financial institution. I got the phone call, um, when he, when he was still working there and j- and just noticed the thing that w- was giving him pause.

 

[00:45:53] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. And he was, he actually was looking for advice ’cause he was afraid he was gonna be implicated in it. 

 

[00:45:58] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. 

 

[00:45:59] Jesse Weinstein: And then I said, “Pump the [00:46:00] brakes. Not so fast. Now we gotta figure out how to protect you.” Mm-hmm. Um, and then, you know, they build the case from within, right? They’re, they’re documenting it. So if you, uh, you know, my advice to, to, to all those people with integrity out there, who are people who are sitting in front of something that is making them uncomfortable, document it.

 

[00:46:16] Jesse Weinstein: The proof is in the pudding. You could always say something verbally, which is the, you know, the path of, of least resistance. But actually, the best thing for your legal case i- is to take the path of most resistance. It’s to run, it’s to run headfirst into it and document it. That’s the ideal legal scenario.

 

[00:46:33] Jesse Weinstein: That, I mean, I- Not so e- not so, uh, you know, easy, but- 

 

[00:46:35] Deirdre Arato: Yeah. 

 

[00:46:35] Christina Phillips: You have to be so brave. You really have to be like, okay, you know, and just not 

 

[00:46:41] Jesse Weinstein: Took a lot. 

 

[00:46:42] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:46:42] Jesse Weinstein: Took a lot with that guy, that client I was just telling you about. Oh, I’m 

 

[00:46:44] Christina Phillips: sure. 

 

[00:46:45] Jesse Weinstein: Many conversations, ’cause he, he was kind of just like, “Well, I’m 64. I might just retire early.”

 

[00:46:50] Jesse Weinstein: And I was just like, “You could do that, or you could maybe get millions of dollars. Because what’s happening, if they fire you, it, it may be worth that.” 

 

[00:46:58] Christina Phillips: Wow. 

 

[00:46:58] Jesse Weinstein: And it took a lot of [00:47:00] convincing, and you gotta do it gently. We don’t wanna, you know- 

 

[00:47:03] Christina Phillips: Strong-arm somebody into- But 

 

[00:47:04] Jesse Weinstein: you gotta let them speak to their families and, and sit with it.

 

[00:47:07] Jesse Weinstein: Um, but he, he ultimately ended up doing that. And you s- and he set the trap for them, and they fell into it face first, unfortunately for them. Mm-hmm. You, you expect more from a huge- Right … institution, but smart people do really dumb things. 

 

[00:47:20] Christina Phillips: So I would love to hear a little bit more about the, uh, the, the education system and what goes on there.

 

[00:47:26] Christina Phillips: I mean, it sounds like you have a lot of experience with that. And you were talking about, I think, was it a special education situation? 

 

[00:47:32] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. Yep. I had one client who I, I will never forget, honestly, one of my most special cases. Um, ’cause just special education teacher for, for 36 years- Wow. Special person

 

[00:47:41] Jesse Weinstein: um, 20- 24 of which were at this, this school, public school. Mm-hmm. Um, and she was just so devoted, I mean, someone who really cared so much about it. Um, and unfortunately, she was fired for doing the one thing that gave her the most grace in the job, which was protecting her, her students. Mm. Um, and, well, that’s her job.

 

[00:47:58] Jesse Weinstein: She’s the gatekeeper- 

 

[00:47:59] Christina Phillips: Right … 

 

[00:47:59] Jesse Weinstein: to [00:48:00] make sure that they’re getting a free and appropriate education. That’s- Absolutely … that is- Yeah … protected by the- Right … Constitution. Everybody deserves one and so- and is entitled to one. So, um, there are these, these things called individualized education plans. Mm-hmm.

 

[00:48:13] Jesse Weinstein: They’re called IEPs in the education system. Um, and what they do is they, if a, if a student has intellectual disabilities or any sort of, um, behavioral disabilities that require some sort of additional aid in the school, it’s do- 

 

[00:48:28] Deirdre Arato: Modifications and accommodations, right? 

 

[00:48:29] Jesse Weinstein: That’s right. That’s right. And it’s, they are, they are to be strictly adhered to.

 

[00:48:33] Deirdre Arato: Okay. 

 

[00:48:34] Jesse Weinstein: You can’t just… It’s not a guide post. It’s not something to aspire to. Like, nope, this is what needs to be done. Mm-hmm. This kid has a, needs a speech pathologist. Uh, this, this kid needs, um, extra time to take his test. This kid has a beha- And this is, this is what was relevant to my case. This one specific student had a behavioral disability that he would, he could go from zero to 10- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

 

[00:48:54] Jesse Weinstein: um, very, very quickly. And so they were gonna use what was called non-confrontational techniques, [00:49:00] um- 

 

[00:49:00] Christina Phillips: Right … as, as- And it was all spelled out in the IEP. 

 

[00:49:02] Jesse Weinstein: Completely. To, so there was no ambiguity about it. Right. Um, and so there was a paraprofessional in that class who was being extremely, extremely hostile and aggressive because when he was in a, a, in a space where he was feeling agitated- Mm-hmm

 

[00:49:15] Jesse Weinstein: um, it was like his volume level increases would result in this paraprofessional’s volume level increases. And it got to a point where he was saying, “I’m gonna go to the bathroom.” And she got in his face and, and said, “F you.” inch, inches from his face- Oh my gosh … and said, “F you.” Um, and you do that to a kid who’s got severe d- behavioral disabilities.

 

[00:49:36] Jesse Weinstein: So what did he do? He got up, he picked his desk up, he threw it across the room. Mm. Um, ended up just needing, needing to be actually taken down by campus security, which is like- Oh my- By the way, that’s her fault. 

 

[00:49:46] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:49:46] Jesse Weinstein: You know? Of course. Yeah. He’s the child here, but he, he had to be restrained, and was almost disciplined for how he responded to her, and that’s where my, that’s really where my client- Yeah

 

[00:49:55] Jesse Weinstein: stood up and was like- 

 

[00:49:57] Deirdre Arato: Yeah … ‘

 

[00:49:57] Jesse Weinstein: cause it was actually in the face of him not getting in [00:50:00] trouble- Mm-hmm … for throwing the desk across the room. Right. Mm-hmm. She was like, “There’s more to this story here.” Of course. And then he actually ended up getting suspended for a week. 

 

[00:50:07] Christina Phillips: Really? 

 

[00:50:07] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah, while they investigated.

 

[00:50:09] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. Um, and then sure enough, her contract wasn’t renewed, um, after she went and, and went to the principal. And, and let me take a step back for a second. But 

 

[00:50:18] Christina Phillips: was the paraprofessional fired? 

 

[00:50:20] Jesse Weinstein: No. To this day, to this day, the paraprofessional remains in that school. 

 

[00:50:24] Christina Phillips: And the teacher was fired. 

 

[00:50:26] Jesse Weinstein: The teacher was fired.

 

[00:50:28] Jesse Weinstein: The teacher was fired, and she, and honestly what, a- and this is the essence of the whistleblower problem. Mm. The final straw that led to her termination was how high she went up on the flagpole to complain. Because when she went to the assistant principal, who’s basically the sheriff of the school, you know- Right

 

[00:50:42] Jesse Weinstein: the assistant principal is the one who’s got the, the sleeves rolled up and knows what’s going on on the ground level. Mm-hmm. You know? Um, it went nowhere. When she went to the principal, it went no there. It went, it went nowhere. So when she goes to the superintendent’s office, that’s when she becomes a problem.

 

[00:50:56] Jesse Weinstein: Because you’ve just put this on the politician’s lap now. Right. 

 

[00:50:58] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:50:59] Jesse Weinstein: You just made this a [00:51:00] political issue for our school. Mm-hmm. And this is a school with a marginalized population. It’s no mystery that they are, they have less resources than schools in more affluent areas that are getting the resources to follow these IEPs.

 

[00:51:11] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. So instead of addressing the paraprofessional’s behavior, they looked at her as, as if getting rid of her would be a liability to this case, and they, they dr- they dragged this litigation on for five years. 

 

[00:51:23] Christina Phillips: Five. Wow. 

 

[00:51:24] Jesse Weinstein: I must have deposed everybody I could in that board of education, and we were playing chicken like any other set of attorneys.

 

[00:51:30] Jesse Weinstein: And I, I don’t play chicken. 

 

[00:51:32] Christina Phillips: Yeah, yeah. 

 

[00:51:32] Jesse Weinstein: I don’t. Um, if I’m litigating, I’m, I’m, I’m looking at every case like it’s going to trial and I need to win. Mm-hmm. Um, and on the first day of trial, right before opening statements, magically the checkbook opens because my, my first witness- Wow … I gave my first witness after my plaintiff, and it was gonna be the superintendent.

 

[00:51:47] Jesse Weinstein: I was going right for the jugular- 

 

[00:51:49] Deirdre Arato: Wow … 

 

[00:51:49] Jesse Weinstein: um, at trial. Good for you. 

 

[00:51:51] Deirdre Arato: I, now that’s awesome. That makes me happy because- 

 

[00:51:53] Jesse Weinstein: Nope, nope, pay position to, to north of half a million dollars in, in 15 minutes just because of who I was gonna depose. I mean, [00:52:00] because of who I was gonna cross-examine. 

 

[00:52:01] Christina Phillips: Right. Right. But it, uh, it’s unfortunate that, that it had to come to that.

 

[00:52:05] Christina Phillips: I mean, she was just doing the right thing, and so it’s, it’s… And that, and who’s… She was looking out for the kids’ best interest, 

 

[00:52:12] Deirdre Arato: the student. And the poor child, to have gone through that, to be restrained in itself, that is terrible. 

 

[00:52:17] Jesse Weinstein: She, she also, one more fact here, she also had a teenage daughter who had severe intellectual disabilities and IEPs of her own, which is what motivated her to keep doing this work- Right

 

[00:52:27] Jesse Weinstein: to begin with. I mean, like, her ch- her child was much older. She was much older. Yeah. But I’m saying she got into this work because she was passionate about- Right. Yes … what she witnessed. So in her mind, when she sees the system attacking a, a special needs student, she sees her own child being attacked. It, that’s why the personal aspect of it, to your point, to your patients- Yes

 

[00:52:45] Jesse Weinstein: um- 

 

[00:52:46] Christina Phillips: Yeah, ’cause the, the, the, you know, the kids can’t, the students can’t. They have no voice. Right. 

 

[00:52:50] Deirdre Arato: They have no one advocating for them. And especially if, and you know what I, I, I can also, um, talk about is the fact that, uh, he, since he had the behavioral issues, [00:53:00] right, in the past, they were probably using that as to see he’s the problem.

 

[00:53:04] Jesse Weinstein: That’s absolutely correct. And, and I, I, I, that was the very first thing that struck me, you know, was like, “How is, how are we talking about this kid’s behavior?” Mm. Like, we, we just, we just went right from the first two scenes of the movie to the third one, um, with like- And 

 

[00:53:18] Deirdre Arato: they’re blaming the child

 

[00:53:19] Deirdre Arato: freaking o- It’s so sad … 

 

[00:53:20] Jesse Weinstein: it, it’s not, it’s not even logical, and you don’t have to be a lawyer to know that. 

 

[00:53:23] Deirdre Arato: Makes me so mad. 

 

[00:53:24] Jesse Weinstein: A- and- You know, I did my, my opening statement, um, for that trial before it settled, and I told the jury, “Defendants will want you to believe that this, this movie started 45 minutes after it actually did.”

 

[00:53:37] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. They just wanna pretend that a third of this pie is missing. Right. You just can’t do that. 

 

[00:53:41] Christina Phillips: No, but I would imagine if you had gone to trial and the jury heard the story, there’s no way that you weren’t winning. 

 

[00:53:47] Jesse Weinstein: I thought so for five years. Yes. But again, there’s a, there’s an ego- Poor boy … centric part of this

 

[00:53:51] Jesse Weinstein: child. Yeah. The, and, and, and that is trauma for that child, too. I mean, being restrained is- 

 

[00:53:57] Deirdre Arato: Absolutely … 

 

[00:53:58] Jesse Weinstein: gonna sit with him and his family for [00:54:00] the rest of their lives. 

 

[00:54:00] Deirdre Arato: Absolutely. 

 

[00:54:01] Jesse Weinstein: That vision of, of zip ties, you know? Like, it’s not… 

 

[00:54:05] Deirdre Arato: Yes. They don’t even realize what they did to that child. That’s how bad it is.

 

[00:54:09] Jesse Weinstein: Right. 

 

[00:54:09] Deirdre Arato: I’m just shocked that the paraprofessional’s still employed. 

 

[00:54:12] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah, I mean, and it’s never, listen, it’s never, it’s not the children that are the problem in these cases. My, my client was, it was 5’1″ on her best day, in her, in her 70s, had been doing this for four… Like, and she kept command of a classroom full of 9th and 10th graders with severe behavioral disabilities.

 

[00:54:30] Jesse Weinstein: You don’t have to be the, you know, brute force to, to- Right … command control of it. Mm-hmm. So you can’t just say it was a dangerous atmosphere ’cause of the student. Mm-hmm. You just can’t do that. 

 

[00:54:40] Christina Phillips: Right. So it’s interesting from the rats to the high levels, you know, executive. Yeah. It’s like you cover it all. 

 

[00:54:46] Jesse Weinstein: A lot of props in the prop room.

 

[00:54:47] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah, exactly. 

 

[00:54:49] Christina Phillips: So, uh, one question that I have, um, is, is it, is it worse to go up some institutions rather than others? Like, you know, a financial institution versus a [00:55:00] government, like a federal government, you know, entity? I mean, how, how do you, how do you manage that? 

 

[00:55:06] Jesse Weinstein: So it, it actually depends on what your goals are, right?

 

[00:55:09] Jesse Weinstein: Um, if you are, if you are going for, “I want this done quickly and quietly and out of my life,” a private institution, whether it’s a fi- a finance institution or a corporation or a nonprofit, um, and it… ‘Cause they’re, you know, they’re, they function like corporations even though they’re a nonprofit. Um, those are, those are the, the paths that you want to get a quick resolution.

 

[00:55:29] Jesse Weinstein: If you are in this for the long haul and you’re like, “I wanna change the way the Earth rotates on its axis,” which some clients do- Yeah, I’ve heard … um, they wanna blow the whistle federally. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, and I usually advise those clients that they have to sort of pick one side of the road or the other, because if they blow…

 

[00:55:46] Jesse Weinstein: They can do both. They can pursue these state-level whistleblower claims as individuals, but if they are also gonna simultaneously file a claim with the Department of Justice, they’re gonna be hanging out for 10, 11 years with this case. 

 

[00:55:57] Christina Phillips: Really? It takes that long. 

 

[00:55:59] Jesse Weinstein: Exactly. So [00:56:00] and then of course, like, if you’re dealing with a school, you know, there, there’s a lo- I…

 

[00:56:03] Jesse Weinstein: You know, the Board of Education, I mean, there’s so many elements, right? Like, there’s no scarier group of people to rile than parents. I mean, like, as somebody- Yeah … with school-aged kids, I go to PTA meetings, and I’m, like, stressed out more than this job stresses me out sometimes. Um, but you know, you’re dealing with parents.

 

[00:56:18] Jesse Weinstein: You’re dealing with teachers. You’re dealing with, um, just layers of, of sort of bureaucracy. Yeah. Yeah. And, and school systems, I feel like, that aren’t appreciated. I’d never r- I don’t think until I started doing this work, I truly appreciated how layered school districts are and and the lengths that people will go to maintain inefficiency over- And 

 

[00:56:38] Christina Phillips: status quo.

 

[00:56:38] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah … over doing the right thing. Like- 

 

[00:56:40] Christina Phillips: Improvement and, yeah. “

 

[00:56:41] Jesse Weinstein: I’m gonna, I’m gonna bury this piece of duct tape so that I…” You know, instead of just ripping it off and, and, and fixing the thing. And then they just bury it, and it just gets caked on, caked on and caked on. Corporations aren’t like that as much.

 

[00:56:53] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Well, I mean, 10 to 11 years is like, uh, it’s a mountain that you have to climb. And then you have to be involved in it as the [00:57:00] person who’s… I 

 

[00:57:00] Deirdre Arato: can’t believe it takes that long. It could take that long. 

 

[00:57:02] Jesse Weinstein: With the… If you get the federal government involved. 

 

[00:57:04] Christina Phillips: Okay. Yeah. 

 

[00:57:05] Jesse Weinstein: Let, let me explain that why. Yeah. Like, if, if I use one of these individual points of statutes to say that somebody wa- that a co- a company was defrauding the government- Mm-hmm

 

[00:57:14] Jesse Weinstein: in, in this way, and it doesn’t really matter what the way is. We’ll just say there’s one specific way they’re… the, the company’s defrauding the government. If I send the company a complaint alleging the, the state law, um, then it might take way less time because they’re just… The question is whether or not that they were retaliated against.

 

[00:57:30] Jesse Weinstein: But if they’re gonna go the federal government route to prove that the government’s being lied to, guess what the government’s gonna do? They’re gonna take this institution, and they’re gonna flip it upside down on its head, and they’re gonna try and find every single way in which the company’s doing this illegal thing.

 

[00:57:45] Jesse Weinstein: And, and, and it happens, right? That- Oh, it totally happens. If you see, if you see somebody who’s like, “Listen, they’re lying to the government about the way that these trades are coming in”- 

 

[00:57:54] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm … 

 

[00:57:55] Jesse Weinstein: then the, the DO- DOJ is gonna turn that thing upside down, and that’s what takes so long. Because [00:58:00] when you have 100,000 employees, that’s a lot of paperwork.

 

[00:58:04] Christina Phillips: That’s a ton of paperwork. 

 

[00:58:05] Jesse Weinstein: There are, there are teams devoted to this, and that’s why it takes so long, because they wanna drive that number up. 

 

[00:58:09] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:58:09] Jesse Weinstein: Guess what? The government makes money when they sanction a, a huge financial institution. So it really depends what your goals are. 99% of the time for my clients, it’s to just get this in the rear view mirror- Mm-hmm

 

[00:58:19] Jesse Weinstein: but also, like, with some compensation. Like, why am I getting two weeks severance after 11 years, uh, of service? Uh- 

 

[00:58:25] Christina Phillips: I, I mean, it’s a… it makes total sense. It’s, it’s completely unfair, you know? And it… then also, I mean, pensions and things could be at stake, too, right? I would imagine. 

 

[00:58:33] Jesse Weinstein: Uh, my te- I mean, my teacher- 

 

[00:58:34] Christina Phillips: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking of

 

[00:58:35] Jesse Weinstein: I mean, just by virtue of when she was fired, she lost $600 a month for the rest of her life. 

 

[00:58:41] Christina Phillips: Oh, yeah. God. 

 

[00:58:42] Jesse Weinstein: And I, I mean, assuming she had at least 20 years plus left, you know, she was in great health, um, I mean, that’s a lot of dough. That’s 

 

[00:58:48] Deirdre Arato: a lot. 

 

[00:58:49] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. And that’s a… and that’s just on principle. 

 

[00:58:51] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:58:51] Jesse Weinstein: That’s, like, not accounting for compounding interest.

 

[00:58:53] Christina Phillips: But wouldn’t she have had tenure or something? 

 

[00:58:56] Jesse Weinstein: So she had… She did. 

 

[00:58:58] Christina Phillips: So they fired her even with the tenure? 

 

[00:58:59] Jesse Weinstein: She, yeah, [00:59:00] she, they, ’cause they can do it for cause. They can do it in a way, and they, and… So this is another part, sort of another tentacle I didn’t talk about with that, that case. If, if, you know, the way that schools turn on their teachers are through evaluations.

 

[00:59:14] Jesse Weinstein: I mean, it’s so, it’s so cringe. Like, they, they will have, like, a, a principal or a superintendent just show up and do these random checks. And so they’ll come into the classrooms, and every… If you ever know any public school teacher, they will tell you the worst 

 

[00:59:27] Deirdre Arato: thing- If a, having a superintendent. I was a teacher- Watching, yeah

 

[00:59:29] Deirdre Arato: so I know. 

 

[00:59:29] Jesse Weinstein: Oh, so you know. So what, what they were doing with my client, which was what made it so obvious, right? They, they sent somebody from the superintendent’s office to observe on a standardized testing day. And, you know, my, my client, you know, really, really thick New York accent, you know, was, w- was, was telling, you know, like, “Why, why are you sitting here watching them fill in bubbles for three hours?

 

[00:59:49] Jesse Weinstein: What are you learning about the way I’m teaching?” 

 

[00:59:50] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Makes total sense. 

 

[00:59:51] Jesse Weinstein: Oh, and by the way, a week after I complained about this to the superintendent, and then a week later, she’s told that she’s, her contract’s not being renewed, [01:00:00] and they’re citing this observation as a, as a reason for not letting her go.

 

[01:00:04] Christina Phillips: Well, that sounds like intimidation- So pretextual … too. 

 

[01:00:06] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. 

 

[01:00:06] Christina Phillips: You know what I mean? Okay, it’s not a car pulling up in front of her house, but the superintendent watching you, you know? That, that’s a s- a form of intimidation, I think, so. Wow, this has been so interesting, and, uh, I’ve learned so much. But have you…

 

[01:00:21] Christina Phillips: I mean, these are two very different industries. What are some of the other things that you’ve seen, or is there anything that you can share with us from your experience or cases that we would, you know, find juicy? 

 

[01:00:34] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah, I mean, when you think juice, you think the entertainment industry, right? 

 

[01:00:37] Christina Phillips: That’s exactly what I was thinking, yeah.

 

[01:00:39] Jesse Weinstein: And, and, and in no other industry is there more, more juice to be found. Um, so yeah, I, I mean, I’ve had and, and have ongoing cases that involved high-profile players in the entertainment world. Mm-hmm. Um, within the entertainment world, powerful people have, have legal problems with each other. Um, and I… You know, journalists particularly get caught in the crosshairs [01:01:00] a lot of this.

 

[01:01:00] Jesse Weinstein: Uh, they’re trying to get the scoop- 

 

[01:01:02] Christina Phillips: Yeah … 

 

[01:01:02] Jesse Weinstein: because, you know, that’s their job. 

 

[01:01:04] Christina Phillips: They’re trying to get to the truth. 

 

[01:01:05] Jesse Weinstein: You know, the news is 24/7, and so everybody’s looking for the next big story to drop. And so I, I do represent, uh, a very high-ranking senior journalist who once worked for, um, a very large media corporation, who was, you know, trying to cover, um, a dispute between multiple famous people.

 

[01:01:22] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. Um, and ended up getting fired because he, you know, he was pointing to things that the famous people were doing that he thought was illegal. And that, that’s the extent of, of what I can say about it. But really, really, he was being pressured to publish certain things that weren’t true, and he was, you know, uh, really pushing back on the legal implications of, of publish- publishing false information when there’s an ongoing legal dispute.

 

[01:01:47] Jesse Weinstein: Um, really, really interesting stuff. Yeah. And, and this… Talk about trauma. I mean, this- the… This guy can give you business for the rest of his life, you know? Because he, I mean, honestly, like, he’s been outed, uh, as he’s had to out his sources to protect [01:02:00] himself, which, like, is the, is the death, you know, the death knell- American lawyer right there, yeah

 

[01:02:03] Jesse Weinstein: for a journalist. If you don’t have your, your, your protection, or if you can’t protect your sources, no one’s ever gonna talk to you. Mm-hmm. So his career is completely ruined. He can’t just say, “I’m gonna start over and go back to another media conglomerate,” because now he’s already out there, um, as somebody who, who needed to- make a fatal decision just to keep his reputation somewhat intact.

 

[01:02:23] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[01:02:23] Jesse Weinstein: Um, and he, I mean, this is a guy who ended up, like, losing his home and, like, and, like, living in a hotel for a little bit. Like, s- a prominent person who’s dealt with the most powerful- Mm-hmm … people in Hollywood. So again, this thing, this whistle- i- idea of whistleblowing and, and retaliation, its tentacles extend into literally every sector that we can imagine.

 

[01:02:43] Christina Phillips: So who does he go… Who is he going after? The media company that he worked for, or the, the famous people, or- 

 

[01:02:49] Jesse Weinstein: Oh, every- I mean- Everybody … the everybody. I’m, I’m a kitchen sink type of guy- Okay, yeah … Christina. Yeah, I… We’re, we’re gonna… We’re not taking any hostages. Good. You know, anybody we can. From the whistleblowing context, we’re at least focusing [01:03:00] on his organization because, again, um, he took the path of most resistance- Mm-hmm

 

[01:03:04] Jesse Weinstein: on his own. Um, and they took the path of least resistance, and now he’s the one sitting there holding the bag. His career that he spent his whole life doing- Mm-hmm … I mean, everybody does… Nobody becomes a big-time journalist. You have to work your way up to that. You have to build a following. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

 

[01:03:17] Jesse Weinstein: You have to gain trust. Mm-hmm. You have to get in the room and get access to people who actually know things. So it’s not just, like, hyperbole or, or some, you know, speculative stuff. So he’s done. He’s cooked. He’s got… He literally wants to just go back and, and be a professor or teach journalism because that’s his only, that’s the only thing he can do.

 

[01:03:34] Christina Phillips: You know, one thing that has made, uh, that I’ve been thinking about is what if there’s a requirement, um, you know, that let’s just say for instance in a, in a doctor or hospital setting, you know, this doctor is performing… I mean, we’ve all heard crazy stories about what can go on in there, but just for the sake of brevity, uh, something’s happening in the medical profession.

 

[01:03:57] Christina Phillips: W- a nurse or another doctor [01:04:00] or an assistant knows that it’s not okay, knows that it could endanger. Are they, uh, what… I mean, do they have a requirement to sort of report something like that? 

 

[01:04:08] Jesse Weinstein: So, uh, I mean, th- there are certain positions in the, in the medical field that w- have certain a- like, mandatory reporting- Mm-hmm

 

[01:04:15] Jesse Weinstein: requirements. Um- 

 

[01:04:16] Christina Phillips: Yeah, that’s the thing I was looking for, mandatory reporting, so. 

 

[01:04:18] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. A- and so, you know, i- if somebody isn’t doing… If somebody is not reporting something to the authorities, for example, you have a child who’s in the hospital who is, um, who is, who looks like they’ve been, um, physically injured by an adult on purpose- Mm-hmm

 

[01:04:33] Jesse Weinstein: physically assaulted or abused, right? And, like, this is just a hypothetical, you know. And, and the, the, the child’s dad is also a prominent surgeon at the hospital, but that the attending who’s examining him doesn’t wanna rock the boat, and so they don’t report this to the law enforcement authorities or have a social worker come in and do a wellness check on the kid so they don’t implicate the powerful doctor.

 

[01:04:52] Jesse Weinstein: Um, yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s not That’s not above ground from, like, a mandatory requiring- 

 

[01:04:59] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm … 

 

[01:04:59] Jesse Weinstein: thing. But there, there’s [01:05:00] also internal policies that, that are certainly applicable to medical professionals. If you see that something’s not done that compromises patient safety, um, and, and that is really the essence of, like, the doctors I represent.

 

[01:05:14] Jesse Weinstein: I see a lot of nurses and doctors, uh, and I represent a couple in huge hospital systems who are saying like, “Hey, listen, uh,” in the surgical, uh, prep portion of, of the hospital, “these are not being sterilized the right way. They’re not going through-” Right … like, you know, a- and you know, I, I’ve represented surgeons who have been like, you know, trying to take sh- you know, shortcuts, the, you know, the operating room’s taking shortcuts in the name of efficiency and to try and move things along.

 

[01:05:38] Jesse Weinstein: Um, that’s really what we see a lot of are, are patient safety concerns. Um, and they, and some of them are doing those mandatory reporting and get fired for that. 

 

[01:05:47] Christina Phillips: That’s what I was wondering, ’cause so if it’s a mandatory reporting situation, they can still get fired for- 

 

[01:05:51] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. Oh, I mean, like, 

 

[01:05:52] Christina Phillips: I- … mandatorily reporting?

 

[01:05:54] Jesse Weinstein: They shouldn’t. Ideally not. Exactly. Uh, but, like, one, but I had one such case specifically where [01:06:00] it was, it was somebody who was working with a, with a vulnerable population of people with, with behavioral disabilities in an in, in an inpatient facility. Mm-hmm. Um, and had complained about, reported a physical injury to one of the patients that was caused by two employees that were restraining him as he was having a, a bit of an, of a, um, I don’t- I’m not sure of episode.

 

[01:06:20] Jesse Weinstein: You can, you can speak more if- Yeah … that’s the right word. I don’t wanna stigmatize- Mm-hmm … it, but he, he was having a bit of a, a, a breakdown, you know? 

 

[01:06:27] Deirdre Arato: Yeah, I don’t kn- I can’t think of what the word is right now, but- 

 

[01:06:30] Jesse Weinstein: It’s, you know, so he, like- An episode or something. Yeah, and, and he, he was not in control of his faculties.

 

[01:06:35] Jesse Weinstein: He was, he was agitated. He was, he was getting violent and aggressive with the people around him, and so they did restrain him, but they did so in a way that didn’t comply with the gui- with the state guidelines. Mm-hmm. You know? They were, they were using force in a, in a too much of an aggressive way, ended up breaking his arm and, and, and, you know, they, she reported this to the state when they wanted to keep it in-house, and then she ended up getting fired for it.

 

[01:06:59] Jesse Weinstein: Um, [01:07:00] so we, we see a lot of that, too. 

 

[01:07:03] Christina Phillips: Wow. That, but you know, that must be an easy case to win, I would imagine. 

 

[01:07:07] Jesse Weinstein: I would hope, but again, there’s always somebody who’s gonna slow it down because- They don’t wanna be… A- a- and it makes no sense to me, right? It makes no sense. Somebody could actually settle a case, and, and the person who i- is being retaliated- Yeah, but if 

 

[01:07:21] Deirdre Arato: you’re looking at it, I can speak from a clinical perspective- Yeah

 

[01:07:24] Deirdre Arato: ’cause I used to work in psych wards, and y- it’s very cliquey. You’re a team, and so you all protect each other. Yeah. So I could, I could understand why, you know, that one person would be f- you know, afraid to say something, because if you were to say something, you are, you are out. 

 

[01:07:43] Jesse Weinstein: More mafia mentality 

 

[01:07:44] Deirdre Arato: stuff like that.

 

[01:07:44] Deirdre Arato: It, it really is that- I don’t know … because you’re all supposed to stick together, stick with the same story. 

 

[01:07:50] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah, I mean, it, it’s like almost like blowing the whistle is, like, a threat to the… Like, how dare you threaten this, like, social institution we’ve built- Yeah … like, inside here. 

 

[01:07:58] Deirdre Arato: It’s why s- Yeah, because you’re not just, you’re b- now you’re [01:08:00] betraying the whole team.

 

[01:08:02] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. And I, I think what, what I find, and i- and I’m thinking about now cases where I’ve actually gotten to depose defendants who are accused of retaliating, ’cause most of these cases settle, to be honest. 

 

[01:08:12] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. 

 

[01:08:13] Jesse Weinstein: Which is great for business if you’re a plaintiff’s attorney. Like, and, and the idea is to bring in money.

 

[01:08:17] Jesse Weinstein: These ca- most of these cases settle, I would s- like, quickly. 

 

[01:08:20] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm. 

 

[01:08:20] Jesse Weinstein: But w- if you get to actually depose, um, a person who’s a higher ranking person, and I’ve only had a couple of opportunities to put somebody from the C-suite in there and get to question them on why they, you know, swept something under the rug.

 

[01:08:32] Jesse Weinstein: It’s so much s- less about the actual thing that the company’s doing, and more so about personal retribution and, and, and fixing their reputation- Yes … than anything else. They wanna be able to have their cake and eat it, too. Because they, just as much as they like moving up, they don’t like looking like the bad- Right

 

[01:08:48] Jesse Weinstein: the bad, you know- That’s it … uh, guy or the bad- 

 

[01:08:51] Deirdre Arato: And that, that’s the sad thing, that they look at it as if they’re betraying. Right. And they r- it, it’s such a bad word that it’s like when I, when I hear them say that, you [01:09:00] know, you’re not betraying anybody. You’re doing the right thing. But yet it feels like they’re betraying.

 

[01:09:05] Jesse Weinstein: Right. 

 

[01:09:06] Christina Phillips: No, I mean, I, you know, I just… A- and, and, uh, it pulls on my heartstrings when I hear about the children, you know, potentially in the schools. You know, especially when they really don’t have a voice. They, they have nobody to stand up for them, uh, aside from their parents. But, I mean, in the classroom or in a hospital, it’s…

 

[01:09:22] Christina Phillips: You know, thank God for whistleblowers, actually. 

 

[01:09:24] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. 

 

[01:09:24] Christina Phillips: Right. Thank God. 

 

[01:09:24] Deirdre Arato: You know? Absolutely. Absolutely. They are like heroes to me. 

 

[01:09:28] Jesse Weinstein: Th- those are actual people who institute change. Absolute 

 

[01:09:30] Deirdre Arato: heroes. 

 

[01:09:30] Jesse Weinstein: Right. They, those are actual people who institute change in these organizations. You’re less likely, in my experience, to change an organization where a very high-ranking person sexually harasses somebody.

 

[01:09:40] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[01:09:41] Jesse Weinstein: Because they can… That’s a one-stop. We can get rid of this person and still keep doing what we’re doing. But when you actually get to a point where you’ve uncovered Something systemic like that. They do make policy changes. Yeah. They do fire people. Right. They do, ’cause one- once the cat’s out of the bag, they, they really…

 

[01:09:58] Jesse Weinstein: It’s a survival thing. Mm-hmm. What, like, [01:10:00] whistleblower things can actually be existential. 

 

[01:10:02] Christina Phillips: That’s great. I mean, you know, because- I love the 

 

[01:10:06] Jesse Weinstein: whistleblower. Such good people. Love you guys. 

 

[01:10:08] Christina Phillips: Well, the fact that you’re, like, actually helping them too is important too, because it sounds like, you know, they, they, they are traumatized for, you know, blowing the whistle, um- 

 

[01:10:17] Deirdre Arato: When they really should be, you know, 

 

[01:10:20] Christina Phillips: they’re heroes.

 

[01:10:21] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah. 

 

[01:10:21] Christina Phillips: Absolutely. 

 

[01:10:21] Jesse Weinstein: And it’s hard because they’re doing it All on their own. It’s not like there’s some phenomenon happening around them that motivates them to do it. Because when all these cases settle and they’re signing NDAs, all the people around them see is that this person’s gone. 

 

[01:10:34] Deirdre Arato: Mm-hmm, 

 

[01:10:34] Jesse Weinstein: mm-hmm. And then they’re being fed a narrative, um, by the people that still work there, which is that, “Oh, this, he’s a bad performer.”

 

[01:10:40] Deirdre Arato: My… Right. 

 

[01:10:41] Jesse Weinstein: Right? Like, an, an NDA doesn’t protect our clients from the people that they were complaining about, fixing the narrative on the thing that they complained about, if that makes sense. Sorry, that was like, you 

 

[01:10:49] Christina Phillips: know. Yeah, no, so that it can… It, it doesn’t necessarily end it. 

 

[01:10:52] Jesse Weinstein: No. They’re… And which is why it’s like a tattoo.

 

[01:10:54] Jesse Weinstein: It stays with them forever. The, it… They can’t ever entirely get out of that shadow. They just have to figure out how to [01:11:00] manage it, and that’s what I’m here for. 

 

[01:11:01] Christina Phillips: I guess, you know, the one thing that if, if it were me, I would want to be anonymous. I… Have, have you ever had a case where somebody tried to be anonymous, and they were found out?

 

[01:11:11] Christina Phillips: The company looked into them. They were like, “Who, who reported?” Or i- you know, is… I mean, ’cause that would be also a retaliation in a way as well. 

 

[01:11:19] Jesse Weinstein: Yeah, I’ve, I’ve seen that many a time in my cases. Mm. Um, I mean, you’re, you have less protection from being outed when you’re super high up, and, and you know, ’cause the circles are smaller with people who know.

 

[01:11:30] Christina Phillips: So it’s kinda gonna be clear. 

 

[01:11:31] Jesse Weinstein: But, you know, at a mid-level management level or, you know, or even just, like, ground level where, you know, where the groun- you know, the soldier, the grunt soldiers are, um, and it’s easier to blend there. What I have seen happen, and this is kind of, kind of insidious, a little me- really messed up with a company.

 

[01:11:44] Jesse Weinstein: What they will do is own the whistleblower complaint. They’ll put it out there if they can g- you know, but what they’ll first do is try and create a narrative that this person’s not credible, that- Oh. You know? Right. If they can, if they can pivot- 

 

[01:11:58] Christina Phillips: Oh, 

 

[01:11:59] Jesse Weinstein: wow. If there’s a pivot [01:12:00] line- Mm-hmm, 

 

[01:12:00] Christina Phillips: mm-hmm … 

 

[01:12:00] Jesse Weinstein: like, unless if they’re…

 

[01:12:01] Jesse Weinstein: And which is often the case, right? We’re spec- we, we’re speculating that something’s happened as whistleblowers, but, like, in most of those cases. And that really leaves a path for these companies to say, “No, they’re looking at it the wrong way. And oh, by the way, um, this was a bad performer who was just an, a disgruntled employee because they didn’t get promoted.”

 

[01:12:19] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. But they’re so good at setting that, that, that story line up, right? Yeah. They… And they’re being im- what, what is so bonkers to me is, you know, i- is that there’s lawyers advising them to do this. Yeah. To, like, create these manipulating situations. But they will- 

 

[01:12:34] Christina Phillips: In a sec. 

 

[01:12:34] Jesse Weinstein: Step one, okay, we have the whistleblower complaint.

 

[01:12:36] Jesse Weinstein: Step two, how can we make this person’s performance look terrible? Mm-hmm. Step three, can we pivot from what she’s complaining about? Okay, now we’ve, now we’ve documented a performance issue because maybe they didn’t email something that they were supposed to, and they submitted it printed out instead.

 

[01:12:50] Jesse Weinstein: Literally something that Small and, and, and minuscule. Mm-hmm. That just allows them to peg down their evaluation enough so that they don’t have to promote this person during a [01:13:00] promotion cycle. And then, then they’ll say, “Yeah, he complained. Um, I know everybody’s hearing that, you know, we’re this corrupt institution, but everybody ask why, you know, whether he got promoted or not, and what was on his eval.”

 

[01:13:11] Deirdre Arato: Mm. 

 

[01:13:11] Jesse Weinstein: And that’s how it happens. And- Wow. 

 

[01:13:13] Christina Phillips: Yeah, they have a way of manipulating it, that’s for sure. Well, you know, they gotta, you know, gotta keep the money coming in, so they’ll do whatever they can to, you know, just make that, the problems go away. Yeah. 

 

[01:13:24] Jesse Weinstein: Just not, I’m just not that intentional. I mean, I’m intentional in a good way.

 

[01:13:27] Jesse Weinstein: Mm-hmm. But I’ve never been somebody who can plan t- to do something harmful. 

 

[01:13:32] Christina Phillips: I am- 

 

[01:13:32] Jesse Weinstein: I’m not gonna do this thing to cause this reaction. I don’t know. And, and that’s, you know… I’m just not cut out for that. That’s why I only do plaintiff’s work, right? I’m not saying defendant… I’m not… Listen, I’m not saying defense attorneys, everybody needs a lawyer.

 

[01:13:43] Jesse Weinstein: Everybody deserves one. There are… Most lawyers are in this for good reasons- Mm-hmm … and try to do the right thing. But unfortunately, there are some who, who are there to cover problems up and not get rid of them. 

 

[01:13:56] Christina Phillips: So we always wrap up our episodes with what would not [01:14:00] be in the company newsletter? And since you’re such an expert, I’m gonna let you take this and run with it, because-

 

[01:14:05] Christina Phillips: you have shared so much great stuff with… So what are the companies gonna not let their employees know? 

 

[01:14:11] Jesse Weinstein: How many hours do I have to answer this question? Uh, well, that, that just what. If we don’t fire you, you may still have a case. 

 

[01:14:18] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[01:14:19] Jesse Weinstein: Uh, you may not have put something in writing, but you still may have a case.

 

[01:14:23] Jesse Weinstein: You may still be working there and seeing something bad. Mm. And you still may have a case. You still may be protected. And most importantly, um, if you do stand up to the company, you’re gonna survive, and you can still find another job, and you’ll live to see another day, and you’ll feel much better afterwards.

 

[01:14:41] Christina Phillips: That is great advice. Thank you so much. Remember, your story is a spark that lights the way for someone else. Until next time.