The Dark Side of Being the Only Woman on the Team

[00:00:00] Melissa Vo: And when you walk in and you realize that all eyes are on you, that you feel like the hairs on your arms sticking up. You know, you feel, you feel like you’re being watched, and it’s because you are. Right, right. Even if people don’t- Right … realize it. 

 

[00:00:13] Christina Phillips: What if it’s a strip club? I mean, you know, I don’t know.

 

[00:00:15] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Like, what, as a, like, as a woman, is that illegal? Like, 

 

[00:00:19] Dierdre Arato: I feel- It can be. It can be … your body perceives it as an automatic threat in which the brain will immediately shift into either that trauma response of fight or flight. Always. You 

 

[00:00:29] Christina Phillips: think it’s like 1950s- Yeah … but it’s not. Right. It’s still happening in this day and age

 

[00:00:42] Christina Phillips: Hey, guys. Thanks for joining me today. We have some really great stuff to go over. Yeah. And just for you, this is Deirdre Elrado, and she is a psychotherapist. This is Melissa Boh, and she is a civil rights attorney and an expert in her field. Both experts. And- Thank you … hope you’re ready to jump in. Yes, absolutely.

 

[00:00:59] Christina Phillips: Talk a 

 

[00:00:59] Dierdre Arato: lot. [00:01:00] This 

 

[00:01:00] Christina Phillips: is a happiness. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we know all too well what goes on for women in a workplace, and so we wanna dig into it and talk to our audience about what’s okay and what’s not okay. 

 

[00:01:11] Melissa Vo: Right. Yeah. 

 

[00:01:12] Christina Phillips: Let’s get 

 

[00:01:13] Melissa Vo: going. Definitely. Definitely. I just, you know, just for a little bit of legal context here, we’re talking about this because generally speaking, it’s illegal for employers to treat you differently based on your gender, right?

 

[00:01:23] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. That’s what discrimination is, and it’s illegal in a federal, state, or city forum. 

 

[00:01:28] Christina Phillips: In every state in the US. Yes. 

 

[00:01:30] Melissa Vo: Right. But what that looks like, the details, that’s kind of what we wanna hammer out today. 

 

[00:01:34] Christina Phillips: Right. Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause it’s, it’s very confusing. And you just- Yeah … somebody who’s just starting out, or even people that have worked so hard- Mm-hmm

 

[00:01:41] Christina Phillips: and they finally get to the top of their field, and now they’re the only woman in the room. Right. And it’s uncomfortable at times. Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah, yeah. So- 

 

[00:01:52] Dierdre Arato: And from a therapeutic sense to discuss, like the emotional toll it takes on women carrying on so many roles. 

 

[00:01:58] Christina Phillips: I can’t imagine. 

 

[00:01:58] Dierdre Arato: So it is. It, [00:02:00] it takes a psychological toll, and that’s something that we also wanna bring to awareness- Right

 

[00:02:05] Dierdre Arato: and support and empower women. 

 

[00:02:06] Christina Phillips: Yeah. So I mean, are you seeing that, you know, women may drop out of the workforce because of it, or…? 

 

[00:02:14] Dierdre Arato: It’s, it’s definitely something that happens- Mm-hmm … as a result of the stress and, um, carrying the multiple roles. Mm-hmm. And they get to a breaking point- Right … of exhaustion.

 

[00:02:25] Dierdre Arato: Right. The mental exhaustion is worse than the physical exhaustion. 

 

[00:02:28] Christina Phillips: Yeah. I know, because I think that especially in, on this topic, we’re talking about the only woman in the room- Yeah … and they really have to, uh, make so many adjustments. 

 

[00:02:37] Melissa Vo: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I, you know, even just being in my field, which is, uh, the legal profession, honestly, this translates to every professional field, though- Yeah

 

[00:02:45] Melissa Vo: I’m sure you guys know. Absolutely. You know, as soon as you walk into a room and you are the only woman there, you feel it, you know, right? Mm-hmm. And I think, Deirdre, you p- probably speak to this as well, your body senses it before your mind 

 

[00:02:58] Dierdre Arato: does. 

 

[00:02:59] Melissa Vo: Mind does. Mm-hmm. Right? Absolutely. You know, we [00:03:00] are… I mean, humans just biologically are, are geared not only as predators but as prey.

 

[00:03:05] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. And when you walk in and you realize that all eyes are on you, like you feel like the hairs on your arms sticking up. You know, you feel, you feel like you’re being watched, and it’s because you are. Right. Right. Even if people don’t- Right … realize it. 

 

[00:03:19] Dierdre Arato: Right. 

 

[00:03:19] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:03:19] Melissa Vo: Um, and then you see that it’s like it, when it’s all male eyes on you as well- Mm-hmm

 

[00:03:24] Melissa Vo: even if it’s subconscious, you know that you’re being observed. 

 

[00:03:28] Dierdre Arato: Right. Right. Right. A body knows- Yeah … like you said, the body knows- Right … before the mind. It’s your nervous system. 

 

[00:03:32] Christina Phillips: Yeah. And what does it do to your nervous system? I mean, does it put you in like survival, fight, flight? It is, 

 

[00:03:37] Dierdre Arato: it is an automatic threat.

 

[00:03:40] Dierdre Arato: Mm. Your body perceives it as an automatic threat in which the brain will immediately shift into either that trauma response of fight or flight. 

 

[00:03:49] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:03:49] Dierdre Arato: Yeah. And over time, those stress hormones destroy your, your immune system, and that’s why a lot of women come to me and they’re dealing with autoimmune [00:04:00] disorders.

 

[00:04:00] Dierdre Arato: Mm. Yeah. They’re having a lot of gut issues- Right. Right … which is all a result of stress. 

 

[00:04:05] Christina Phillips: Right. Yeah. And that sort of nervous system- Absolutely … 

 

[00:04:08] Melissa Vo: dysfunction. And I’m sure- Regulation … 

 

[00:04:09] Christina Phillips: it starts 

 

[00:04:09] Melissa Vo: off 

 

[00:04:09] Christina Phillips: like 

 

[00:04:10] Melissa Vo: subtly too. 

 

[00:04:10] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:04:11] Melissa Vo: Right? It’s like you don’t even realize the stress that you’re, you’re dealing with. It’s like- Yes A- and men don’t really have to deal with this as much, right?

 

[00:04:18] Melissa Vo: I, I feel like we go in and we’re self-editing immediately. Not only what we say- 

 

[00:04:23] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm … how 

 

[00:04:24] Melissa Vo: we behave, how we act. 

 

[00:04:25] Christina Phillips: Absolutely. 

 

[00:04:26] Melissa Vo: Make sure we’re not, w- making sure that- 

 

[00:04:27] Christina Phillips: Can’t be too aggressive. Exactly. Can’t be too timid. 

 

[00:04:30] Melissa Vo: Um, right. Right. It’s such a 

 

[00:04:31] Christina Phillips: delicate balance- Yeah … and it’s just like I, I don’t know. I mean, do men…

 

[00:04:35] Christina Phillips: I mean, yes, of course they have to worry about things at work, but I don’t think they have to worry about- Yeah … monitoring- Right … themselves- 

 

[00:04:41] Dierdre Arato: Right. 

 

[00:04:41] Christina Phillips: Right … quite as much. 

 

[00:04:42] Dierdre Arato: Right. It’s two jobs. You’re always doing two jobs at once. 

 

[00:04:44] Christina Phillips: Right, right. Yeah. Right. 

 

[00:04:45] Dierdre Arato: And I feel like women in general, we tend to constantly be on, like, in a performance.

 

[00:04:50] Dierdre Arato: Mm-hmm. We are constantly performing. 

 

[00:04:52] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. 

 

[00:04:53] Dierdre Arato: As our role in, in our work, in our relationships, as mother, so it’s a lot of [00:05:00] overachieving, which again, will take a toll. 

 

[00:05:01] Christina Phillips: Well, and the crazy thing is, is that when you have an overachieving women, woman or women, and then they reach, like I said, the top of their field, and now they’re being told to just take notes or get me some coffee.

 

[00:05:12] Christina Phillips: Uh-huh. Or, uh, you know- Always … you think it’s like 1950s- Yeah … but it’s not. Right. It’s still happening in this day and age. 

 

[00:05:17] Melissa Vo: Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Not only are you, are you editing yourself, but you end up filling so many different roles. You know, like, I feel like when you are the only, only female, the only woman in a room, the other males there assume that you are either a junior and/or you’ll pick up, like, the more womanly tasks.

 

[00:05:37] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. Getting coffee. Mm-hmm. Planning outings, you know, things like that, or it’s like, or even emotionally monitoring the men. 

 

[00:05:45] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:05:45] Melissa Vo: Right. Right. You know, you are their go-to. Like, you are the therapist in the room. 

 

[00:05:48] Christina Phillips: Well, I mean, what happens when, you know, let’s say you’re the only woman on the team- 

 

[00:05:53] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:05:54] Christina Phillips: and now there’s a guys outing.

 

[00:05:57] Christina Phillips: You know, they’re going to- Right … okay, what if it’s [00:06:00] a strip club? I mean, you know, I don’t know. Yeah. Like, what, as a, like, as a woman, is that, is that illegal? Like, can I 

 

[00:06:06] Melissa Vo: go? It can be. It can be. Right. So, like, that’s an example of something that’s a little bit subtle in terms of differential treatment. Mm-hmm.

 

[00:06:12] Melissa Vo: If you’re not being invited to golf outings, to happy hours, to the strip club, now that’s something that not, you’re not necessarily entitled to, but if it’s a pattern over time of you being excluded from things that males are invited to- Mm-hmm … then that could absolutely be discriminatory. 

 

[00:06:28] Christina Phillips: Wow. 

 

[00:06:28] Melissa Vo: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

 

[00:06:30] Melissa Vo: That’s a great example of it. 

 

[00:06:31] Christina Phillips: Well, I mean, I, you know, I don’t think that that’s all too common, but I’ve, I’ve heard of situations where that has been- Absolutely … the case. Yeah. And it’s like, okay, well, what do you do? You don’t wanna… You know, you wanna keep up the pace of, of what everybody else is doing.

 

[00:06:45] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. But it’s a very, that could be a very, very uncomfortable- It’s very 

 

[00:06:47] Melissa Vo: male-centric. 

 

[00:06:48] Christina Phillips: Right. Exactly. You know, okay, I can’t go home. I can’t relieve my babysitter because all the guys are going to the club. Right. And I have to Part- participate, I guess. 

 

[00:06:58] Melissa Vo: Yeah. You know? [00:07:00] Right. Right, right, and you feel that pressure, too, as a woman, too- Mm-hmm

 

[00:07:02] Melissa Vo: because you want to make the same strides as your male counterparts. 

 

[00:07:06] Christina Phillips: Absolutely. 

 

[00:07:06] Melissa Vo: Right? Absolutely. Um, and that also, I think what’s, what’s really common is, you know, being left out of, like, group chats or email threads, even if it’s your peers, even if it’s… Or even if you are superior to your male counterparts.

 

[00:07:18] Melissa Vo: Right. Right? Um, so all of that in, in conjunction 

 

[00:07:23] Christina Phillips: absolutely can be 

 

[00:07:24] Melissa Vo: discriminatory. 

 

[00:07:24] Christina Phillips: Have you seen this in your practice? 

 

[00:07:27] Melissa Vo: All the time. All the time. All the time. Yeah, there’s so many different examples of things that can be discriminatory. Anything where you feel like you are being treated differently- Mm-hmm

 

[00:07:35] Melissa Vo: than your male counterparts, and it’s because of your gender, you know, it can be subtle and it also doesn’t have to be intentional. Mm-hmm. If there’s, if there’s, there’s a pattern of it over time, that’s something that you absolutely want to, one, address, but two, also take note of. 

 

[00:07:49] Christina Phillips: Right. Right. The tension shows up across a lot of the stories we’ve received, not from one woman, but from many.

 

[00:07:57] Christina Phillips: One woman says she’s the only woman on an eight-person deal [00:08:00] team. She finds herself constantly adjusting, going too quiet, or getting more aggressive just to be heard. And another says the moment she walks into a room and realizes she’s the only woman, her body tenses up before anyone even speaks. And another works at a startup where she’s almost always the lone woman on calls.

 

[00:08:16] Christina Phillips: She says it often feels like she’s speaking a different language. Different roles, different companies, same experience. So in the first story, the woman is always constantly monitoring herself. She doesn’t wanna be too, you know, timid, and she doesn’t wanna be too aggressive. And so, I mean, legally, uh, what is she supposed to do?

 

[00:08:37] Melissa Vo: Well, first off, I think legally speaking, I would definitely advise her to take note of it, right? But it depends on the circumstance. Mm-hmm. So if she feels like… First off, if she feels like she’s editing herself, I want her to feel that. You know, I want her to, to acknowledge that that’s a real feeling- Mm-hmm

 

[00:08:55] Melissa Vo: and make sure that she knows that it’s not just her. Right. Because I think in a lot of scenarios, especially [00:09:00] when you’re, you’re the only person there in your position, you question yourself, right? Mm-hmm. You question yourself, and you question whether or not your reality- Mm-hmm … is, is an actual reality, or if it’s your anxiety, or if it’s, it’s you overreacting.

 

[00:09:13] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. And internally, you’re, you’re weighing those, those different scenarios. But externally, that’s what happens, too. Even when you voice your opinion sometimes, you have people who are, uh, who are devaluing what you say and trying to, you know, for lack of a better term, gaslight you into not believing in yourself.

 

[00:09:32] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. So depending on what the scenario is, if, you know, if you express yourself and say, you know, uh, y- you know… If you’re just reacting to something and someone sa- says that you’re too emotional or you’re overreacting- 

 

[00:09:42] Christina Phillips: Ooh, that’s a good one. I mean- 

 

[00:09:43] Melissa Vo: Right? Oh, 

 

[00:09:44] Christina Phillips: that’s… I hear that all the time. Right? It- “Oh, you’re too emotional.”

 

[00:09:44] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:09:46] Melissa Vo: Yeah. Right. Uh, if you feel like you’re editing yourself and then someone’s telling you you’re being too emotional or you’re overreacting or you’re being, you know, a bitch or, you know, something like that- 

 

[00:09:55] Christina Phillips: That’s pretty blatant. Exactly. 

 

[00:09:57] Melissa Vo: That’s very, very blatant. A lot of times it’s a lot more subtle than that.[00:10:00] 

 

[00:10:00] Melissa Vo: You can also question that and say, you know, “I’m just expressing how I feel. This is, you know… Why exactly do you think that I’m overreacting?” Right. “I’m not being emotional. These are, these points are very valid.” Right? Take note of that. Push back a little bit if you can. Um, and then afterwards, you know… I, I think first it’s very important to see if what they’re saying is intentional.

 

[00:10:22] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. And sometimes it’s not. Question- 

 

[00:10:23] Christina Phillips: Well, but isn’t that sort of the problem, though? That- Yeah … you know, if it’s not intentional, it’s just like, “Oh-” Right … it’s just like business as usual. “Oh, you’re too emotional,” or- Yeah … “Oh, don’t be such a bitch,” or- Oh … “Oh, must be that time of the month,” or you know what I mean?

 

[00:10:35] Christina Phillips: Exactly. It’s kind of like- 

 

[00:10:36] Melissa Vo: Push back and say, “Hey, that’s, that’s inappropriate.” 

 

[00:10:38] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:10:38] Melissa Vo: Right. It’s like, you know, this, you know, “Mike or Pat over there said this exact same thing. They’re not emotional.” Right. “Like, I’m just making a point here.” And then taking a record of it because legally what happens or how you form a case is patterns, establishing patterns of behavior.

 

[00:10:56] Melissa Vo: Got it. Okay. Yeah. So that’s important. 

 

[00:10:58] Christina Phillips: So s- as, as, since I’m not an [00:11:00] attorney- Yeah … so it’s like, okay, I go in, it happened, somebody said this. It doesn’t have to be just one person. Can it be multiple people? Absolutely. Absolutely. So it can be, well, somebody said this to me this day, and then he said this to me, like, two weeks ago.

 

[00:11:17] Christina Phillips: Yeah. And so you’re just as the person who’s, this is happening to, you’re just sort of taking note, writing it down- Yeah … maybe voicing your concerns 

 

[00:11:26] Melissa Vo: to- Voicing it. Yeah. Voicing it, kind of establishing the witnesses. You know, if other people are there, especially if it’s the same players, it’s, it doesn’t, you know, the actions don’t have to come from the same players, right?

 

[00:11:36] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. The same group of people, the same group of men that keep treating you this way, right? They’re, they’re treating you differently because you are the woman. 

 

[00:11:43] Christina Phillips: Well, I have two questions. Yeah. It’s first of all, what’s going- I mean, it’s that whole, like, sort of self-monitoring, freezing- Right … nervous system dysregulation 

 

[00:11:54] Dierdre Arato: that you were talking about.

 

[00:11:54] Dierdre Arato: Right. Right. So it’s cumulative trauma. Psychologically, this constant [00:12:00] hypervigilance, self-doubt, self-trust, questioning. Is it me? Am I making more of this what, than what it is? 

 

[00:12:07] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:12:07] Dierdre Arato: And so by the time they come to me in therapy, women are already emotionally exhausted. Yeah. 

 

[00:12:12] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:12:13] Dierdre Arato: And, and, and, and it’s this constant like, “Maybe it’s me.

 

[00:12:16] Dierdre Arato: Maybe it’s me.” Yeah. So when they come to me, it’s an objective point of view that, no, it’s not all in your head. Yeah. This is real. Mm-hmm. And 

 

[00:12:24] Christina Phillips: so- And you’re not ima- you’re not making it 

 

[00:12:26] Dierdre Arato: up? You’re not making it up. Right. And, you know, they lose confidence in themselves. So it’s a way of, in therapy, of empowering themselves that, you know what?

 

[00:12:34] Dierdre Arato: This is real. Mm-hmm. And so let’s see what your next steps can be, and which is then I advise seek legal counsel. 

 

[00:12:41] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Yeah. And so then when you’re, maybe somebody comes to you with a problem like this, are you taking the therapist’s view into account? 

 

[00:12:49] Melissa Vo: Of course. Oh. Of course. So in cases, and I’ll, uh, I’ll, um, I’ll try to make the, put this in simple terms as well.

 

[00:12:56] Melissa Vo: So in a civil suit, the only damages or the only remedy there is, [00:13:00] is money, right? It’s, um, it’s not jail, you know? It’s not a criminal matter usually, unless there’s, you know, other things involved. Um, and what makes up those damages a lot of the times are the emotional distress. Mm-hmm. So we absolutely take, take, um, therapists and, um, psychologists and, you know, psychological tech- And medical 

 

[00:13:17] Dierdre Arato: doctors 

 

[00:13:18] Melissa Vo: as well

 

[00:13:18] Melissa Vo: exactly. Anybody that- I- … can give advice, you know, a, a professional advice on, um, that person’s mental health, whatever they say is going to be extremely valuable to the case. Not o- uh, not only to the case, but to the mental health of the client. Mm. Because, you know, the legal battles can be a real long one, and you wanna make sure that your client is up for that- Yeah

 

[00:13:40] Melissa Vo: for the long, for the long term. Um, and the last thing we wanna do starting a case is, you know, have it be a detriment to someone’s mental health, because they’re going through so much already. 

 

[00:13:50] Christina Phillips: So if people- Long-term … uh, I mean, are they sort of maybe bringing these cases to you when they’re going through it?

 

[00:13:55] Christina Phillips: Or like, let’s say, they’ve quit their job because they just couldn’t take it anymore, or both? [00:14:00] Yeah, both. Both. Mm. Both. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

 

[00:14:02] Dierdre Arato: Yeah. And I see both in the therapy room, where it’s, it’s actually happening or it has happened, and they’ve come to me at a point where they are so beyond stressed out.

 

[00:14:13] Dierdre Arato: Yeah. The s- the anxiety that they’re feeling is, is overwhelming. They’re, can’t sleep at night. They are having, um, stomach issues, migraines. So it, the stress impacts you physically as well. And I think that’s really important- 

 

[00:14:30] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:14:31] Dierdre Arato: for, um, lawyers to, to understand- Yeah … that this chronic stress is taking a physiological toll- 

 

[00:14:39] Melissa Vo: Yeah

 

[00:14:39] Dierdre Arato: on people. 

 

[00:14:40] Melissa Vo: Absolutely. 

 

[00:14:40] Dierdre Arato: And it, actually, that stress is going to eventually cause autoimmune disorders. 

 

[00:14:45] Melissa Vo: Yeah. The strongest cases that we have are not only psychological symptoms, but psychological symptoms that manifest into your physical- 

 

[00:14:53] Dierdre Arato: Absolutely … being as 

 

[00:14:53] Melissa Vo: well, right? Because 

 

[00:14:54] Dierdre Arato: they go together. 

 

[00:14:55] Melissa Vo: Right.

 

[00:14:55] Melissa Vo: Exactly. It’s, it, like, like you said, it’s, it’s digestive issues, it’s [00:15:00] hair loss. 

 

[00:15:00] Christina Phillips: Yes. 

 

[00:15:01] Melissa Vo: Real physical signs- Skin picking … of you’re going through… Exactly. Yes. Exactly. 

 

[00:15:04] Christina Phillips: Yes. Mm-hmm. So do you have to… I mean, as, let’s say I’m your client, would I have to prove that? Would I have to pr- I mean, that it was actually the job that did this to 

 

[00:15:14] Dierdre Arato: me?

 

[00:15:15] Melissa Vo: That- So what really helps are your medical records or your therapy records, but your testimony itself is evidence. Mm-hmm. Right? And so, I mean, we’re, my job is to build the strongest case possible. There are a lot of avenues to doing that. Right. Yeah. 

 

[00:15:31] Christina Phillips: Interesting. Um, and what do you, I mean, what do you advise?

 

[00:15:35] Christina Phillips: I mean, are, do you just help them self-advocate to- 

 

[00:15:38] Dierdre Arato: Well, it’s a ma- it’s a ques- it’s a matter of empowering th- the women, because again- They don’t feel validated or acknowledged in general. I think all of us- But I mean, across the board … women, we struggle. I think we struggle with that- Yeah … in general across the board.

 

[00:15:54] Dierdre Arato: But then when you’re in the workplace, it’s exacerbated. Of course. So now it’s like, “I don’t [00:16:00] trust myself. I’m constantly ruminating. Am I good enough?” 

 

[00:16:03] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. So your confidence is being whittled away a little, like 

 

[00:16:06] Dierdre Arato: little- It, you lose a part of yourself. 

 

[00:16:08] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:16:09] Dierdre Arato: Yeah. And that’s the saddest part that I see when women who were, have accomplished so much in their life, and they have given so much of themselves.

 

[00:16:17] Dierdre Arato: Yeah. And then to see them slowly, bit by bit, being destroyed- 

 

[00:16:22] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:16:22] Dierdre Arato: of their confidence- It’s that way … and their trust and their self-doubt. To me, that’s where I come in as empowering. This is not in your head. 

 

[00:16:30] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:16:31] Dierdre Arato: We need to do something about it. Now we need to be active and get a plan together to get you on the right path.

 

[00:16:37] Dierdre Arato: And then my suggestion is to always follow up with a medical doctor. Yeah. Because again, there are physiological symptoms going on, and as well as seeking legal counsel. 

 

[00:16:46] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:16:47] Dierdre Arato: And I can tell you just that shift when they come into therapy, to have that acknowledged and validated, you can already see a shift- Yeah

 

[00:16:56] Dierdre Arato: in their energy. 

 

[00:16:57] Melissa Vo: Right. A lot of times it’s really, [00:17:00] it’s really about find some- find someone who’s going to listen to you, right? Because, you know, a lot of clients will come in earlier or later on in their psychological journey, right? The damage could be done, or they can catch it a little bit earlier.

 

[00:17:12] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:17:12] Melissa Vo: But either way, it’s, I, I feel like that first conversation, having someone who, who listens to what you say, acknowledges what you say, validates how you’re feeling, that in itself can be empowering. And I like to remind my clients, too, and prospective clients, that you being here and seeking that validation is you empowering yourself again.

 

[00:17:33] Melissa Vo: Because, you know, the world and em- you know, your, your workplace included, it’s not built for you. It really is there to, it’s, it is a man’s world, and the workplace often is, is a mirror of that. And so it’s not your fault that you feel lesser than. You are entering an environment that was not built for you, right?

 

[00:17:52] Christina Phillips: It’s a boys’ club a lot. Yeah. I mean, it’s still in this day and age, I hate to say it, but there’s a boys’ club mentality out there still. 

 

[00:17:57] Melissa Vo: Yeah. And I wanna bring, 

 

[00:17:58] Dierdre Arato: I wanna bring up something [00:18:00] very important that I see in therapy with women. They, they come at a point where they didn’t think there was anything they can do about it.

 

[00:18:08] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:18:09] Dierdre Arato: And so they feel so defeated. 

 

[00:18:11] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:18:12] Dierdre Arato: And just the fact that, you know, they are getting the acknowledgement and the validation to pursue, it’s that point when they’re in therapy that they wouldn’t have done anything about it, but when they come and they sit and they realize, then they start taking the action.

 

[00:18:27] Dierdre Arato: They know that there’s a plan for them to go to seek the legal counsel. 

 

[00:18:30] Christina Phillips: Yeah. I mean, that’s empowering in and of itself- It is, yes … because you’re, you’re sitting there knowing, “Okay, I don’t have to take this.” 

 

[00:18:35] Dierdre Arato: Exactly. 

 

[00:18:35] Christina Phillips: Like, or a job- Exactly … you know, 

 

[00:18:37] Dierdre Arato: or- I’m not the punching bag 

 

[00:18:38] Christina Phillips: anymore. Right, 

 

[00:18:38] Dierdre Arato: right. You know?

 

[00:18:39] Dierdre Arato: I don’t need to t- I don’t need to accept this. 

 

[00:18:41] Christina Phillips: I’m allowed to climb the ladder. 

 

[00:18:43] Melissa Vo: Right, and there are protections for you, and what they’re doing to you could be illegal. 

 

[00:18:47] Christina Phillips: Right. Yeah. The next story takes that pressure a step further. It’s from a woman working in a tech lab where she’s one of very few women.

 

[00:18:55] Christina Phillips: She says everything she does feels misinterpreted. If she’s friendly, it’s [00:19:00] read as flirty. If she’s quiet, she’s seen as cold. She becomes hyper-aware of how she moves, speaks, and reacts, and over time, that constant scrutiny starts taking a real toll on her confidence. So, th- the second person, you know, she’s working…

 

[00:19:13] Christina Phillips: I mean, this is a male-dominated industry, tech. Right. I mean, I know, you know, when my kids were in school, they’re always after girls to get into tech and, you know, the science and the math and all of the stuff, but It’s still very pervasively male, so she is feeling like if she’s too nice, she’s flirting.

 

[00:19:31] Christina Phillips: Huh. If she’s not too nice, now she’s, you know, sort of what we were talking about, it’s too strong and she’s too, you know, she’s gonna be called perhaps a bitch. We don’t wanna say that, but that’s the way she’s perceived. And, um, but I wanna just hone in on, like, the flirty part. It’s kind of like, why can’t you just do your job without thinking that you’re flirting with someone?

 

[00:19:55] Christina Phillips: You know what I’m saying? Yes. It’s just like, that- So uncomfortable … there’s such, 

 

[00:19:58] Melissa Vo: there’s such a double standard [00:20:00] because it’s the hyper-scrutinization again. Mm-hmm. Like, our personalities matter so much more than male personalities- … men’s, like, men’s personalities, right? It’s like, how many times is it in, like, uh, one of your annual reviews or a review where it’s like, “You have a great personality,” or it’s like, “You need to be a little bit…”

 

[00:20:16] Melissa Vo: And, and men just don’t have that same, that same, uh, standard, right? Like, they’re not being judged on their personalities as long as they deliver. Mm-hmm. As long as they do their jobs. We have multiple jobs that we’re being judged, you know, being judged for, judged on. Um, and flirtiness is one of them, right?

 

[00:20:33] Melissa Vo: It’s like we, they, you know, people expect you to be, to be friendly- Mm-hmm … but not flirty. Right. It’s 

 

[00:20:39] Christina Phillips: like- And how 

 

[00:20:40] Melissa Vo: do 

 

[00:20:40] Christina Phillips: you, how do you determine- Be 

 

[00:20:42] Melissa Vo: friendly … you know? Right? And if you’re too, if you’re too reserved, then you’re, then you’re too cold. Or you’re not. Then you 

 

[00:20:48] Christina Phillips: should 

 

[00:20:48] Melissa Vo: be warm. 

 

[00:20:49] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:20:49] Melissa Vo: Exactly. Right.

 

[00:20:50] Melissa Vo: Exactly. And that standard is just not there for men. Right. Right. You could be, you know, just, you could talk to… I mean, I, I’m sure so you could, you could think of some male colleagues as, like, [00:21:00] talking to a freaking brick wall. You know? And they get great reviews. 

 

[00:21:03] Christina Phillips: Because there’s no problem. There’s no, like, there’s- Absolutely

 

[00:21:06] Christina Phillips: there’s no, uh, commentary 

 

[00:21:08] Melissa Vo: on- Yeah … 

 

[00:21:09] Christina Phillips: their personality, basically. 

 

[00:21:10] Melissa Vo: Basically, yeah. So. Like, you know, glass of whole milk of a personality and you still get solid reviews. But if you’re, you know, if you’re that as a woman, you’re absolutely going to be scrutinized. 

 

[00:21:19] Christina Phillips: And of course, I mean, of course her confidence is undermined.

 

[00:21:22] Christina Phillips: Uh, I mean, it just wouldn’t be, because it’s like what you said, the hypervi- visualization. You’re hypervigilant on how you’re, you’re performing. And how you’re being perceived. Right. 

 

[00:21:32] Dierdre Arato: Yeah. I 

 

[00:21:32] Christina Phillips: think 

 

[00:21:32] Dierdre Arato: innately, women, we always fear that rejection. We’re always… I think we’re born that way. 

 

[00:21:37] Christina Phillips: I know. I d- I absolutely 

 

[00:21:38] Dierdre Arato: agree.

 

[00:21:38] Dierdre Arato: To feel socially rejected, right? Like, even if you look at it from when babies are born, it seems to be celebrated if it’s a boy and less, you know, if it’s a girl. I see that often in therapy, the cultural influence as well as the societal. It’s true. So women are already walking in with, uh, this, this self-rejection.

 

[00:21:57] Dierdre Arato: A deficit 

 

[00:21:57] Melissa Vo: or the- It’s a deficit … 

 

[00:21:58] Dierdre Arato: is it deficit. Absolutely. [00:22:00] Absolutely. It’s like I’m being rejected. And like you were saying, um, Melissa, earlier on about the eyes are always on the women. Mm-hmm. We’re always being monitored, and we feel that. 

 

[00:22:11] Melissa Vo: Yes. Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:22:11] Dierdre Arato: You can tell by somebody’s eyes- 

 

[00:22:13] Melissa Vo: Uh-huh … 

 

[00:22:14] Dierdre Arato: you know, how, what, how they’re perceiving you.

 

[00:22:16] Dierdre Arato: And so women are already- Bracing. 

 

[00:22:20] Christina Phillips: So do you think that the, the standard, I mean, for women, I mean, the, it’s not only do they have to perform their job very, very well, but they also can’t get away with a lot pers- you know, with their personality. Right. Yeah. Right. You cannot get away with anything. 

 

[00:22:34] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:22:35] Christina Phillips: So, I mean, but it, it’s like, is it legal?

 

[00:22:39] Christina Phillips: Is it not legal? That’s sort of where It’s, your perspective is so, so helpful because let’s just say you are being flirty. You know what I mean? Yeah. It, it’s because you feel like that’s the only way you can get ahead. 

 

[00:22:53] Melissa Vo: Right. 

 

[00:22:53] Christina Phillips: So. 

 

[00:22:54] Melissa Vo: It’s a gray area. Yeah. It’s very, very much a gray area, right? Right. Um, it’s that environment that not [00:23:00] only cultivates your, and by your I mean women generally, that behavior of self-editing, and, you know, uh, the internalization of, um, misogyny is maybe the, the dramatic term, but, um, the internalization of feeling lesser than, right?

 

[00:23:16] Melissa Vo: So there’s that, but that also, that same environment empowers or enables, enables is a better term, enables- Mm … men to treat you a different way. That’s what you have to focus on when you’re, you know, trying to see whether or not something is illegal or not, something, whether something is discriminatory, right?

 

[00:23:34] Melissa Vo: You can’t help but feel internally, you know, certain things, and you edit yourself. But that doesn’t, that doesn’t justify men treating you differently. 

 

[00:23:43] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:23:44] Melissa Vo: Right? Uh, that’s different, right? 

 

[00:23:46] Christina Phillips: So, well, do you ever have the instance where they’re saying, “No, well, she was, she was flirting with me,” and it was all b- they, they blame the woman for ev- 

 

[00:23:54] Melissa Vo: All of the time.

 

[00:23:55] Christina Phillips: So that- 

 

[00:23:55] Melissa Vo: In every case. In every case. Oh, 

 

[00:23:57] Christina Phillips: really? 

 

[00:23:58] Melissa Vo: And granted, granted, you know, the, there are, [00:24:00] there are advocates, really good attorneys on the other side doing their job. Mm-hmm. But of course the other side is always going to argue that, you know, it was, it was the woman’s fault. 

 

[00:24:08] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:24:08] Melissa Vo: Right? 

 

[00:24:09] Christina Phillips: Ooh. Yes. Yeah.

 

[00:24:09] Christina Phillips: Ooh-hoo-hoo, that is, that’s rough. 

 

[00:24:11] Dierdre Arato: Right. And, and this is where the identity distortion comes in. Women are constantly saying to themselves, you know, “Who am I? Am I less capable? Is there something wrong with me?” 

 

[00:24:22] Christina Phillips: Right, mm-hmm. Well, not only that, but also it’s kind of like, okay, wait, how should I dress? I mean, you know, th- there are so…

 

[00:24:28] Christina Phillips: How much makeup should I wear? How much skin should I show? Uh, uh- Right … you know, for all of these things, to be working in an all-male environment, I mean, nobody, I don’t think guys- Yeah … 

 

[00:24:38] Dierdre Arato: go 

 

[00:24:38] Christina Phillips: through that. 

 

[00:24:39] Melissa Vo: Right. I mean- 

 

[00:24:39] Dierdre Arato: It’s a slow shrinking. It is. It’s a slow shrinking- Ooh … of the self. 

 

[00:24:43] Melissa Vo: Right. And I get cases all the time where the other side argues that the person was actually an underperformer, and you see the reviews and it’s like, “This person had terrible, um, working relationships with, you know, with other employees.”

 

[00:24:54] Melissa Vo: Can’t get 

 

[00:24:54] Dierdre Arato: along with others. 

 

[00:24:55] Melissa Vo: Exactly. Exactly. And then you’re looking at everybody else’s reviews, and it’s, you know, the men [00:25:00] are not, you know, there’s no comment, you know, there’s no comment on them. Ooh. Right? You know, so, uh, it, there is a fine line between someone who could be potentially a poor performer and discrimination, right?

 

[00:25:12] Christina Phillips: Yeah. That’s the thing. Right. I mean, hopefully we’ll be delving into a lot of different stories so we can really sort of paint that picture- Yeah, yeah … of what’s okay and what’s not okay. I mean, because- You know, it’s hard to know whereas, uh, like I’m a civilian, so I’m not a therapist or psychiatrist. Yeah, yeah.

 

[00:25:27] Christina Phillips: And I, and I have heard lots and lots of stories- Yeah … about what women go through and, um, like I said, I’m so surprised that it’s still going on in this day and age. 

 

[00:25:38] Dierdre Arato: You know what I wanted to bring up? I wanted to bring up something that happened in therapy with a, a few clients here, that this constant, uh, self-monitoring- Yeah

 

[00:25:49] Dierdre Arato: right, being judged, feeling that they’re, everyth- every move they make It actually impacts their work performance. 

 

[00:25:58] Melissa Vo: Yeah. Boy, I bet. 

 

[00:25:59] Dierdre Arato: Uh-huh. [00:26:00] Because they’re so, y- they’re, they’re trying to manage the jobs, the job, uh, skills that they have to do, but then they’re also consumed with the, the ruminating thoughts of, “Is this okay?

 

[00:26:12] Dierdre Arato: If I do this, is this okay?” So, you know, that balance, again, is, is taking a psychological toll. 

 

[00:26:19] Christina Phillips: Yeah, I mean, I think rumination is, like, the perfect word for it, because I know, not that I’ve experienced this myself, but I just know when I’m sending an email, uh, you know, like, is it- Oh, yeah. … is it too aggressive- Uh-huh

 

[00:26:30] Christina Phillips: or is it, you know. But if I’m on an all-male team, I would imagine, and that’s gonna be magnified by 1000% just- Yes … because- 

 

[00:26:39] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:26:40] Christina Phillips: of course, everybody that’s working wants, I mean, you would hope that everybody wants to do a good job and they’re trying their best. I mean, we have to sort of, you know, think that’s the case, and then that is, it’s hard to do a good job- Yeah

 

[00:26:52] Christina Phillips: when you- Mm-hmm … have all of these other things- Yeah … 

 

[00:26:55] Melissa Vo: to worry about. So much pressure. Uh-huh. 

 

[00:26:56] Dierdre Arato: It’s so much pressure being a woman. I’m sorry. 

 

[00:26:59] Melissa Vo: It [00:27:00] is. It really is. It’s funny that you say the emails too, because I feel like there have been so many times where it’s not the writing of the email that takes a long time, it’s, like, deciding how many exclamation points to include in the email.

 

[00:27:11] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:27:11] Melissa Vo: You know, you don’t want to be too, you know, you don’t wanna be a pushover, but you don’t want to be, you know, an asshole either. 

 

[00:27:16] Christina Phillips: Yeah, and you wanna watch your capitalization because then you’re screaming. Yeah. It’s like now everybody knows those rules, and so it’s kind of like- Yes … all right. So watch- For yourself

 

[00:27:26] Christina Phillips: watch the cap locks. 

 

[00:27:28] Melissa Vo: I had, um, I, one of my first bosses outside of law school, he would put the entire email in the, the title of the email, and it would be in all caps, and no one’s ever said anything to him. Of course not, right? 

 

[00:27:41] Christina Phillips: But if you did it, it’s like, “Why are you so angry, Alyssa?” 

 

[00:27:44] Melissa Vo: Why are you yelling at me?

 

[00:27:45] Dierdre Arato: Yeah. “Alyssa, what’s the matter? You having a bad day?” 

 

[00:27:48] Christina Phillips: Yeah. What i- you know, what, what happens if, like, people come up to you and, you know, uh, it’s, is it the, I guess you sort of said it’s the pattern, but it’s like, okay, well, let’s say you’re, like, not in the best mood- [00:28:00] Yeah … and, and your male counterparts are like, “What’s wrong with you today?”

 

[00:28:04] Christina Phillips: Or you know, it’s like- Yeah … and they’re sort of commenting- It’s so subtle … because I feel like women are a lot more emotionally available in their face. Mm. And so, like, what is okay and what’s not okay? 

 

[00:28:15] Melissa Vo: Yeah. Well, actually, it depends on the scenario because if it’s, you know, if you are usually a very expressive person and someone’s just asking you if you’re, you know, if you’re feeling okay today, that, you know, that could be, that, that might not be discriminatory.

 

[00:28:27] Melissa Vo: However, if you’re acting the same way that you always do when it’s the same way everybody else is acting And someone’s like, “What’s wrong with your face?” You know? And it’s like- How- … this is just, this is my face. Like, I feel fine. Is that 

 

[00:28:37] Dierdre Arato: even appropriate for them to say that to you? No. Like, you know what 

 

[00:28:42] I’m 

 

[00:28:42] Melissa Vo: saying?

 

[00:28:42] Melissa Vo: But these are the 

 

[00:28:42] things- 

 

[00:28:42] Dierdre Arato: There’s a lot of things that are wrong with that … but that these are things that- Oh, yes … women question. Like, was that okay for him to just say that? 

 

[00:28:47] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:28:47] Dierdre Arato: And I say, if you are even questioning it- 

 

[00:28:50] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm … 

 

[00:28:50] Dierdre Arato: use that as an alarm. 

 

[00:28:51] Christina Phillips: Yeah. So really, uh, I mean, you’re going… You have to go with your gut.

 

[00:28:54] Christina Phillips: Ah, always. Like, so you must- Yeah … 

 

[00:28:56] Dierdre Arato: absolutely go with your gut. Right. If it’s automatically [00:29:00] giving you an ick- 

 

[00:29:00] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm … 

 

[00:29:01] Dierdre Arato: trust it. 

 

[00:29:02] Christina Phillips: There’s a reason. There’s a reason why. 

 

[00:29:03] Dierdre Arato: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:29:04] Christina Phillips: Yeah, yeah. 

 

[00:29:04] Dierdre Arato: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:29:05] Christina Phillips: And from your perspective, you’re like, “Okay, that’s ick on this day, and 

 

[00:29:08] Dierdre Arato: that’s ick on this day.” Yeah. Let’s keep 

 

[00:29:11] Christina Phillips: note of this icks.

 

[00:29:11] Christina Phillips: Yes, 

 

[00:29:11] Dierdre Arato: yes. Calculate those icks, ladies. Uh-huh. 

 

[00:29:14] Christina Phillips: Calculate them. Uh-huh. Yeah. No, because I mean, you know what? Your instinct, your gut intuition, you might wanna quiet it down or whatever, but it is there for a reason. And- Yeah … I think it’s really, really important to listen to it. 

 

[00:29:26] Melissa Vo: Yes. Agreed. 

 

[00:29:27] Christina Phillips: So… 

 

[00:29:28] Melissa Vo: You don’t want to be labeled a problem.

 

[00:29:30] Melissa Vo: We get that. HarassmentHelp.org was created for women who want to understand their rights quietly without setting off alarms. If something feels wrong, let us help you figure out what to do about it. Visit harassmenthelp.org. Don’t miss what’s next either. Hit subscribe on YouTube so you get the next episode as soon as it drops.

 

[00:29:47] Christina Phillips: I guess my next question is, how is… What’s the best way to handle a situation like this? I mean, we… You talked about pattern recognition. Mm-hmm. You talked about keeping notes. [00:30:00] Um, but when is it too soon, or when is it too late? You know? Like, let’s just say, okay, you left your job ’cause you just couldn’t take it anymore.

 

[00:30:10] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Or you just started your job, and you’re starting to notice some comments. Like, can you sort of break it down when, what’s too soon? 

 

[00:30:18] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:30:18] Christina Phillips: And is it ever too late? 

 

[00:30:19] Melissa Vo: Yeah. This is going to be a, a very lawyerly a- answer, but it depends. It depends on, on the scenario, and I would say use your best judgment.

 

[00:30:27] Melissa Vo: And, and a lot of it is kind of your first judgment too, right? It’s really trusting your instinct, trusting your gut. Um, in like a real-life scenario where someone was at, you know, saying, you know, saying something to you that you don’t think is quite right, and saying that you’re, you’re being intimidating or you’re being too this or that, I would explore.

 

[00:30:47] Melissa Vo: I would be curious before being accusatory. Like, you know- 

 

[00:30:50] Christina Phillips: That’s good advice … 

 

[00:30:51] Melissa Vo: asking, asking them, “You know, what do you mean by that?” 

 

[00:30:54] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. “

 

[00:30:54] Melissa Vo: What do you mean by that? I just wanna make sure that I’m understanding you correctly because I, I wanna make sure that, [00:31:00] you know, I’m being treated fairly and you’re the same as everybody else.

 

[00:31:03] Melissa Vo: What do you mean by that?” 

 

[00:31:04] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:31:04] Melissa Vo: Like, “Are you saying that I am Acting, you know, uh, too angry. You know, what would you fix? What would you do with the scenario? You know, just, uh, being curious, asking really what they mean, because that could either expose their discriminatory intent, or it could fix the problem before it escalates.

 

[00:31:22] Christina Phillips: Oh, okay. 

 

[00:31:23] Melissa Vo: Right? 

 

[00:31:23] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:31:24] Melissa Vo: Um- Good point. Yeah. After that happens, if it keeps happening, definitely take note of it. You know, make sure there are other people around, talk to somebody about it. Um, and I, I don’t think it’s ever… You know, depending on the scenario, it’s never too soon or too late. Okay. Right? But I would say, um, you know, before, before seeking legal advice, because that can be a really, you know, that can be a very, very tenuous and long road.

 

[00:31:49] Melissa Vo: Talk to a therapist, talk to a friend, talk to a mentor. Mm-hmm. Right? Report it to somebody. Note it. Are you allowed to tape, or is that different state by state? It’s different state by state. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, [00:32:00] yeah. 

 

[00:32:00] Christina Phillips: It’s- ‘Cause that would, that’s my first inclina- I mean, you know, with the cell phone these days.

 

[00:32:03] Christina Phillips: That is- Everything is being taped and everything. Uh-huh. Yeah. But that’s just very good for Our audience to know whether you can or whether you can’t. Yeah. But let’s say you taped and it was not in a state that was, it wasn’t, it was illegal. 

 

[00:32:15] Melissa Vo: Right. 

 

[00:32:15] Christina Phillips: You then can’t use that. 

 

[00:32:16] Melissa Vo: Exactly. Exactly. I’m, I practice mainly in New York where it is a one party state, meaning that only one party to a multiple party conversation has to consent, meaning that you can record other people and it, it can be used as evidence later.

 

[00:32:28] Melissa Vo: Um, but that varies state by state, so you do have to be careful. Mm-hmm. If there’s a legal question like that, that you have, definitely consult an attorney. 

 

[00:32:34] Christina Phillips: Right. Yeah, no, I know. Yeah. Just curious just because- 

 

[00:32:36] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:32:37] Christina Phillips: the use of cell phones is so prevalent right now. Uh-huh. Yep. And we see that on the news all the time.

 

[00:32:41] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Where everybody whips out, so I was- Yeah … just curious about in the workplace- 

 

[00:32:45] Melissa Vo: Yeah … 

 

[00:32:45] Christina Phillips: how does that fly? 

 

[00:32:46] Melissa Vo: Yeah, it is. And also, like, different, different employers have different policies about that, too. Mm-hmm. Um, so definitely be careful about the recording, but you know, at least write a note, talk to somebody about it.

 

[00:32:57] Melissa Vo: Mm-hmm. Because that’s also recording something in real time. [00:33:00] 

 

[00:33:00] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. And from your perspective, um, when, are you sort of see people in both when it’s just maybe starting to happen, or they’ve, like, lost, like, they left the job because it was just too much to deal with? 

 

[00:33:13] Dierdre Arato: I will say it’s both, but for, for the most part, what I see is they come after the fact.

 

[00:33:18] Dierdre Arato: Really? That they’re already, they’re already done. They’ve, they’re exhausted, they’re anxious, they’re just miserable. Yeah. Completely worn down from, from it all. And because what I notice is women expect it to be this major event- Mm-hmm … to take place. Like- 

 

[00:33:37] Christina Phillips: Oh, good point, and it’s sort of a whittling away of the- 

 

[00:33:40] Dierdre Arato: It’s, it’s the small, subtle- 

 

[00:33:42] Christina Phillips: Microaggressions?

 

[00:33:44] Dierdre Arato: experiences that they’re going through. That they, each one leaves them questioning themselves. 

 

[00:33:49] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:33:50] Dierdre Arato: So that’s when they come to me say, “Well, maybe it’s just me. I’m making a bit more than it is. You know? Maybe I’m being too emotional.” Mm-hmm. Some women will even say, “Well, maybe I’m [00:34:00] perceiving it this way, internalizing it when it’s real.”

 

[00:34:02] Dierdre Arato: They don’t mean it that way. 

 

[00:34:04] Christina Phillips: Yeah. 

 

[00:34:04] Dierdre Arato: So they’re always questioning themselves because they think it should be some major event- Mm-hmm … to say, “Oh no, that’s not discrimination- Right … or sexual harassment.” 

 

[00:34:14] Christina Phillips: Well, I guess another question that I have is what happens, like, if you, you know, you’re just starting your job and you can see that this is gonna be a toxic environment.

 

[00:34:23] Christina Phillips: Yeah. And you say, “Hey, you know what? I don’t, like, I, I can’t deal with this.” You don’t wanna take it as far as, like, seeking out a lawyer or seeking out a therapist, but you’re just saying, like, “Okay, I, I don’t, I’m gonna leave this situation and I’m gonna go find a new and different job.” Which is maybe not something that, like, you know, our male counterparts have to deal with.

 

[00:34:43] Christina Phillips: Yeah. But, um- I mean, what are the, I mean, are there any legal ramifications if you leave your job, you try to seek another job, you don’t seek another job that’s gonna be that much better. Mm-hmm. Uh, is it ever too late to go back? I mean, I know you said it wasn’t too [00:35:00] late, but there, is there a window of time?

 

[00:35:01] Melissa Vo: Not too late to go back and seek legal advice? 

 

[00:35:04] Christina Phillips: Yes. 

 

[00:35:04] Melissa Vo: Or, or, or pursue a case? Or sort of 

 

[00:35:05] Christina Phillips: repercussions because- 

 

[00:35:07] Melissa Vo: Oh, I see. Well, if you’re at a new job and you’re trying to seek repercussions for an old job, it would depend on at what point you left the old job. There’s something that’s called a constr- a constructive discharge, which is more of a legal term, where if that job made it so unbearable that you had to leave- Mm-hmm

 

[00:35:24] Melissa Vo: there could be a case there, right? But it depends. It varies case by case. And also, I think Deidre will probably speak to this, too, it depends if it’s worth it for you as a person. Mm-hmm. I’ll give legal advice so that somebody can make the best decision for their, themselves in their own lives, but it’s also I’m not in their shoes.

 

[00:35:39] Melissa Vo: And so they also have to, to take into account what’s best for their own lives, too. So would it be worth it for them to, you know, a few years later, you know, go back and try to, to seek justice? I don’t know, right? 

 

[00:35:51] Dierdre Arato: Right. Yeah, no, I wanna just, you know, add to that, that- For women, in general, if you notice that [00:36:00] your daily level of functioning has become impaired- Mm-hmm

 

[00:36:03] Dierdre Arato: that’s the time- 

 

[00:36:04] Christina Phillips: Mm. Yeah … 

 

[00:36:05] Dierdre Arato: to seek help. Right? 

 

[00:36:06] Christina Phillips: Yeah. No, but so let’s say that happens, and somebody gets a new job, and but they’re, they’re, you know, they start to become bitter because, like, maybe they see that somebody that stayed in that job, that they could have stayed in, but they chose to leave because it was uncomfortable.

 

[00:36:18] Dierdre Arato: Yes. 

 

[00:36:19] Christina Phillips: And that person, their male colleague, now has risen up the ranks. Mm. And this other person is maybe, like, sort of, you know, they, they, they had to leave, they had to start a new job, and they wanna pursue something, but they already have a new job. 

 

[00:36:34] Melissa Vo: Mm. 

 

[00:36:34] Christina Phillips: So does it matter whether you have a new job or whether you don’t have a new job?

 

[00:36:39] Melissa Vo: It does. It does matter in term of… It matters for, uh, for various reasons, right? If you’re ever questioning, I would say, if you’re ever questioning whether or not you can pursue something, just talk to an attorney. Talk- call me up, you know. Mm-hmm. See if, see if there’s anything to pursue there. Um, and it also matters in a legal sense because I know I spoke earlier about something called damages.

 

[00:36:58] Melissa Vo: Uh, whether or not you have a new job [00:37:00] impacts what you could potentially get in court. Mm-hmm. Right? And that might potentially impact whether or not you wanna pursue an action. Uh, legally speaking, you could win an entire case and not actually be owed any money. 

 

[00:37:10] Christina Phillips: Oh, okay. 

 

[00:37:10] Melissa Vo: Right? Those are two 

 

[00:37:11] Christina Phillips: different things.

 

[00:37:11] Christina Phillips: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 

 

[00:37:12] Melissa Vo: yeah. 

 

[00:37:12] Christina Phillips: Well, the interesting thing, too, I think it’s a little bit intimidating for some people to call an attorney. 

 

[00:37:16] Melissa Vo: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

 

[00:37:17] Christina Phillips: Because they may feel that, you know what, well, they can’t afford it. Or, uh, I mean, maybe when, you know, it’s maybe somebody who’s not as advanced professionally.

 

[00:37:26] Christina Phillips: Right. Um, and but you as a therapist, you’re saying, like, seek, and you can sort of guide them to be like, “It doesn’t hurt to call.” Right. “Just provide the call.” 

 

[00:37:35] Dierdre Arato: Exactly. Just, just be informed. 

 

[00:37:37] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:37:37] Dierdre Arato: Become educated. Right. Because at this point, when you’re, you coming into therapy and you can’t sleep, and you’re having stomach issues, and you’re having these constant ruminating thoughts, and you just, you’re not yourself anymore.

 

[00:37:52] Dierdre Arato: That’s the biggest thing: “I’m just not myself. I don’t know what’s wrong with me.” 

 

[00:37:55] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Well, the confidence, it’s just a huge, it takes a huge- Yeah … huge, huge toll. Yeah. I mean, I [00:38:00] know people that it’s happened to. 

 

[00:38:01] Dierdre Arato: Yeah. 

 

[00:38:01] Christina Phillips: And, um, some have sought legal advice, some haven’t. 

 

[00:38:04] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:38:05] Christina Phillips: Um, but you know, I guess the answer is different for everybody.

 

[00:38:07] Melissa Vo: Yeah. There are, I mean, there, there are a lot of resources. There are online resources, too. Harassmenthelp.org is one of them, right? You can look online and do some research yourself b- before speaking to a person if you’re, you know, if you need a little bit more confidence before talking to an actual person.

 

[00:38:21] Melissa Vo: Um, so, you know, at least do that. Like, it’s always good to see what your resources are. 

 

[00:38:25] Christina Phillips: Yeah, I agree. And, um- It’s, it’s, it’s just a shame that we are still dealing with this. There’s 

 

[00:38:30] Melissa Vo: so many thi- so many things that a majority of, of, a, a majority of these instances go unreported. Or, or, you know, a lot of times women put they, they want to put their, their careers first.

 

[00:38:42] Melissa Vo: And I put, I, I put that in, in quotes because, again, you just said that, you know, if you’re undergoing all of this, what is trauma on a daily basis- Mm … it impacts your career long term. 

 

[00:38:52] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. 

 

[00:38:52] Melissa Vo: You know? So people internalize it, and they kind of just try to move on with, with their lives, with their careers, without [00:39:00] really understanding that there are long-term impacts if you don’t speak up for yourself.

 

[00:39:03] Melissa Vo: Right. 

 

[00:39:03] Christina Phillips: Well, I think, and to your point, it’s the long-term impact of something manifesting physically. Yeah. Psychological stress- Yeah … manifesting physically, and then, you know, that all has to be undone in order… I mean, because it becomes a health issue. So- 

 

[00:39:16] Dierdre Arato: It, it erodes your self-confidence. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

[00:39:19] Christina Phillips: Don’t miss what’s next.

 

[00:39:21] Christina Phillips: Hit subscribe on YouTube so you can get the next episode as soon as it drops. You know, so wrapping this up, what doesn’t make it into the company newsletter, uh, would you say? I mean… 

 

[00:39:33] Melissa Vo: I would say that, you know, the job, the main job that you do at your workplace, you know, you can be dra- congratulated in the newsletter, but what’s not in the newsletter is- Yeah

 

[00:39:43] Melissa Vo: everything else that you have to do, your three other jobs that you have to do, right? Mm-hmm. It’s the, the note-taking, the coffee getting, the emotional regulation of yourself and your male peers. 

 

[00:39:53] Christina Phillips: Right. 

 

[00:39:53] Melissa Vo: That’s not 

 

[00:39:54] Christina Phillips: in the newsletter. Those, those, those little microaggressions are not making it into, uh- Uh- … the, the fine print.

 

[00:39:59] Christina Phillips: Yeah. [00:40:00] Oh, yeah. Black and white. 

 

[00:40:01] Dierdre Arato: Mm-hmm. Yeah, actually managing how well you’re be- being perceived. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Right? That’s news you don’t… That’s not in the memo. 

 

[00:40:08] Christina Phillips: Or, or, or whether you’re friendly or flirty. Or whether- Or whether you’re aggressive 

 

[00:40:12] Dierdre Arato: or just really serious. Yeah. Or is she bipolar today? Oh my God.

 

[00:40:18] Dierdre Arato: That’s been a, that’s been one. Yeah. Do you hear that? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that they’re, they’re- I had a client who, who, um, overheard her two, one colleague and a supervisor saying, “Oh, she’s bipolar today.” Oh, 

 

[00:40:31] Christina Phillips: ouch. 

 

[00:40:31] Dierdre Arato: Yeah. 

 

[00:40:32] Melissa Vo: That’s unacceptable. 

 

[00:40:33] Dierdre Arato: Yeah. On many levels. Yeah. So. 

 

[00:40:36] Melissa Vo: Oh, yeah. 

 

[00:40:36] Dierdre Arato: Yeah, there you go. That’s not in the, in the newsletter.

 

[00:40:38] Christina Phillips: I mean, the one thing that I, I, I, I guess we should also mention too is that it’s mostly women that this happens to with the w- only woman in the room, but I think that, you know, some maybe people that identify differently or- 

 

[00:40:51] Melissa Vo: Exactly … 

 

[00:40:52] Christina Phillips: you know. 

 

[00:40:52] Melissa Vo: Exactly. We concentrated on gender discrimination today. Mm-hmm.

 

[00:40:55] Melissa Vo: But there are a lot of different types of discrimination out there. Yeah. Right? So- Gender is not the only protected [00:41:00] class. 

 

[00:41:00] Christina Phillips: Right. Right. Yeah, no, and we’ll be getting into some of those others. 

 

[00:41:03] Melissa Vo: Oh, oh yeah. 

 

[00:41:04] Christina Phillips: That’s gonna be- 

 

[00:41:05] Melissa Vo: I was gonna say that comment, the bipolar comment, is, is… There, there are a few things there.

 

[00:41:10] Melissa Vo: Yeah. Yeah. 

 

[00:41:11] Christina Phillips: Yeah, ’cause I guess if that, that- But 

 

[00:41:12] Dierdre Arato: she questioned because she overheard it. 

 

[00:41:15] Melissa Vo: Yeah. 

 

[00:41:15] Dierdre Arato: So she just swallowed it. Mm-hmm. Oh. 

 

[00:41:19] Christina Phillips: Well, it, yeah 

 

[00:41:19] Dierdre Arato: All the time 

 

[00:41:20] Christina Phillips: Yeah. No, and that’s not gonna be in the newsletter either. Oh, well, so-and-so is saying this about me, and- Yeah … I don’t, you know, I couldn’t respond or- Mm-hmm

 

[00:41:28] Christina Phillips: I didn’t respond- Mm-hmm … because- Mm-hmm … you know, what if it was the boss? 

 

[00:41:31] Melissa Vo: Yeah. Uh, something el- else that’s not in the newsletter also is, like, you know, a male getting awarded for something, but what’s not seen or what not s- what’s not spoken of is his female team that supported him. 

 

[00:41:42] Christina Phillips: Oh. A lot. Yes. Mm-hmm. I have heard of that, uh, happening and to people that I know.

 

[00:41:46] Christina Phillips: Yeah. And that’s brutal. 

 

[00:41:48] Melissa Vo: Yeah. Brutal. To not, to feel that you’re lesser than and also not be recognized for the work that you do and have a man take credit for it, that’s a ton. 

 

[00:41:56] Christina Phillips: Yeah. That’s not okay. 

 

[00:41:57] Melissa Vo: Yeah. No, no, no, it’s not. 

 

[00:41:59] Christina Phillips: Thank you guys [00:42:00] so much for being here. I really appreciate it. Thank you. This has been super informative, and I think that we’ve got some answers on some things that shouldn’t be going on.

 

[00:42:07] Dierdre Arato: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I really appreciate it, and- Yeah. 

 

[00:42:09] Melissa Vo: Thank you for having us. 

 

[00:42:10] Dierdre Arato: I will see you next time. Yep. 

 

[00:42:13] Christina Phillips: Next time on Not In A Newsletter, we’re asking the question no one wants to answer out loud: Is it ever okay to date someone at work? What starts as chemistry can turn into chaos, and we’re breaking down the risk, the rules, and the red flags.

 

[00:42:26] Christina Phillips: Remember, your story is a spark that lights the way for someone else. Until next time.