Is It Ever Okay to Date Someone at Work?

[00:00:00] Josh Friedman: There’s nothing illegal about a consensual relationship on its face with a supervisor. Where the, the lines of, uh, legality start to blur or become unlawful is what happens if you guys don’t run off into the sunset together.

[00:00:12] Christina Phillips: What do you do when you break up? You just dated a coworker, now you’ve broken up.

[00:00:17] Deirdre Arato : They feel very uncomfortable with their professional role. They are constantly self-monitoring and seeing how they’re being perceived. “I am just gonna go get, look for another job,” and she’s been with her job for 15 years.

[00:00:29] Josh Friedman: And that’s what companies want. Companies would rather you quit or find a new job

[00:00:43] Christina Phillips: People meet at work all the time, long hours, shared pressure, same goals. So it’s not shocking when feelings show up, but when work and relationships mix, things get complicated fast, especially when one person has more power or more influence or more to lose. I’m Christina [00:01:00] Phillips. Welcome to Not in the Newsletter, the things you’ll never read in the company newsletter, what’s okay, what’s not, and everything your company would rather keep quiet.

[00:01:08] Christina Phillips: Today, we’re talking about dating someone at work. I’m here with Deirdre Arado, psychotherapist, and you, Josh Friedman, um, employment discrimination attorney, and I’d like to welcome you both.

[00:01:19] Deirdre Arato : Thank you for having me.

[00:01:20] Christina Phillips: Uh, this is a really interesting subject because I know there’s a variety of, uh, scenarios out there and some of them are legal, some of them are illegal.

[00:01:28] Christina Phillips: So let’s just break it down. But I would say, Deirdre, looking at you, I mean, how… What do you do when you break up? You just dated a coworker. Now you’ve broken up, and how do you continue to function in your job?

[00:01:43] Deirdre Arato : Right, and that’s when, when people come into therapy when the relationship has ended. Mm-hmm.

[00:01:47] Deirdre Arato : Because now they’re in, in a conflict. They feel very uncomfortable with their professional role. They have to work with the other person, and they are constantly self-monitoring and [00:02:00] seeing how they’re being perceived. So they’re, at that point, they’re coming to therapy and they’re stressed out. Mm-hmm.

[00:02:05] Deirdre Arato : Right? Mm-hmm. So, but- They, and then they start blaming themselves. Why did I do this? What should I… I should never have done this. So that second-guessing, and I try to m- normalize what they’re feeling because in the beginning of any relationship, you’re excited, your emotions are taking over, and you’re not looking at it from a logical perspective of what happens if this ends badly.

[00:02:28] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, definitely not. Yeah, I mean, I-

[00:02:31] Deirdre Arato : So, right … think that would be shocking. So, so that’s where, you know, it gets, it gets, um, difficult for some people to manage their emotions- Right … because it’s, they’re really uncomfortable and blaming themselves. Yeah,

[00:02:41] Christina Phillips: and at work when you have to sort of face it every day.

[00:02:44] Christina Phillips: And I mean, Josh, is it, um, I mean, can companies have policies that m- forbid you from dating your coworker?

[00:02:51] Josh Friedman: Sure. So it, it is permissible for a company to have, like usually o- often call them an anti-fraternization policy. They… It is permissible for companies to have [00:03:00] those policies. They’re not, you know, unlawful.

[00:03:02] Josh Friedman: Um, sometimes they could prohibit it outright. Sometimes they could want or require you to, like, disclose if you’re in a relationship with a coworker. Um, so that’s okay for, for companies to have that and, and you should be mindful of that, um, when you’re navigating the overlap between work and relationships because if you violate a company policy, it’s, it’s could be grounds for termination even if- Right

[00:03:21] Josh Friedman: it’s not, you know, the, the biggest or the worst thing in the world.

[00:03:24] Christina Phillips: And if they didn’t have that policy in place, like you’re fully fine to date your coworker?

[00:03:29] Josh Friedman: Sure. I mean, there’s nothing unlawful, uh, about dating a coworker, um, or even dating a supervisor, um, you know, by itself. But, you know, problems can arise, you know, if the relationship ends.

[00:03:40] Josh Friedman: If, if it, if it’s not a Netflix storybook ending-

[00:03:43] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm …

[00:03:43] Josh Friedman: things can get tricky. Um, na- just practically navigating that, and there could be some issues with, you know, wha- what’s illegal and, and, and what’s not, especially how you’re treated afterwards.

[00:03:54] Christina Phillips: Sure, because I mean, so if you have two consenting adults, you get into a relationship.

[00:03:59] Christina Phillips: [00:04:00] Let’s just, like, think of some different scenarios. Why, if you’re, when you’re in the relationship and somebody gets promoted, um, still fine, still okay?

[00:04:12] Josh Friedman: Need some more context. I would like to know the basis for the promotion. If, if the supervisor is closer friends with the person who’s being promoted and, and you’re the one being excluded, and you know, that, uh, like boys club high-five, you know, conquest kinda situation, if that’s the basis for the promotion, yeah, that could…

[00:04:30] Josh Friedman: Yeah, that, that sounds like it could be unlawful. But if it is just two people in a relationship that are both, you know, competing for, you know, a, in, you know, reprising, raising their trajectory in the company- Right. Mm-hmm … that, you know, it’s a neutral determination of who’s getting promoted, no, that, that wouldn’t be illegal.

[00:04:46] Christina Phillips: Okay. So well, we have some stories that I’d like to get into, and we can… I’d like to get your take on it to see what you think and how it might play out in the real world, so.

[00:04:57] Deirdre Arato : I had a client come to me [00:05:00] extremely upset because, um, she was at, in a relationship with her coworker, and they worked very closely together, and it ended very badly.

[00:05:09] Deirdre Arato : And the ex was badmouthing her to other members of the team.

[00:05:17] Christina Phillips: Oh.

[00:05:17] Deirdre Arato : And to the point where they started shunning her.

[00:05:21] Christina Phillips: Okay.

[00:05:22] Deirdre Arato : And this was impacting her with her

[00:05:26] Christina Phillips: s- Performance,

[00:05:26] Deirdre Arato : I would imagine. Exact-

[00:05:27] Christina Phillips: Yeah … ‘

[00:05:28] Deirdre Arato : cause now, now she was, like, being, everyone was looking at her differently. They were shunning her in, in, in the lunchroom, and just being very short with her and curt with her when sh- they had, had good relationships.

[00:05:42] Deirdre Arato : So she came to me, she doesn’t know what to do because now this gossip is all over, and everybody knows her business, and it’s all because of the ex.

[00:05:52] Christina Phillips: Okay. So he was ju- he’s just been chitter-chatting about the relationship and the breakup. Basically

[00:05:57] Deirdre Arato : exposing her, badmouthing her, [00:06:00] and putting all the, the, the mess out there.

[00:06:04] Christina Phillips: Wow. What do you think, Josh? I mean, is that legal?

[00:06:07] Josh Friedman: Uh-

[00:06:07] Christina Phillips: Sound like…

[00:06:08] Josh Friedman: So the short answer is no, that doesn’t sound legal, a- and here’s why. If there’s, you know, there’s gossip and all of these things to the exclusion of, of, in this situation, the, the woman, um, usually there are managers, supervisors, people higher up in the company that are aware of this.

[00:06:26] Josh Friedman: They’re, they’re watching this going on, and, and, and if they’re not doing anything about it, if they’re not trying to remedy this, stop it from, from happening, um, and just create, like, a harmonious workplace- Mm-hmm … uh, that could, uh, you know, that could become a, a claim. You know, the company could be liable for not, uh, remedying and, and not correcting what…

[00:06:45] Josh Friedman: You know, when people talk about harassment, hostile work environment, this is this type of stuff that they’re talking about. It’s, it’s being done to the, to the woman instead of the man in this situation that you’re talking about. And if the company knows about it and fails to do anything about it, that could become unlawful.

[00:06:58] Christina Phillips: So does she have to [00:07:00] go to her human resources department or her supervisor and say, like, “Hey, I can’t take this anymore. Something has to be done”?

[00:07:06] Josh Friedman: Sure. Sure. So you, you hit on a, a, a really good point, because people often conflicted, that if I make this complaint, it’s rocking the boat. There’s a stigma attached to it.

[00:07:14] Josh Friedman: Um, so I find a lot of people are reluctant to do that. S- um, a- and rightfully so. It’s a hard, hard thing to do to, to bite the hand that feeds you, these people- Mm … that are really signing your paychecks, right? Um, so to answer your question, though- Um, not necessarily. It might be good practice to make a complaint to protect yourself, and, you know, I know that there’s politics and red tape involved in that, and you probably need an employment lawyer to help guide you through that.

[00:07:39] Josh Friedman: Um, but you don’t have to make a complaint, so long as there’s a manager, a supervisor, or somebody higher up in the company that knows about it and is ignoring it. Um, i- if there’s a, a supervisory person, a manager that knows about it, they have a duty to intervene, to investigate, or, you know, investigate to get to the bottom of it, and basically stop it.

[00:07:56] Christina Phillips: Is that a duty by law?

[00:07:58] Josh Friedman: Yes. That is a, a duty [00:08:00] under federal, state, in, in New York City law if it happens- Oh … within the city. Companies have a duty to investigate and remedy harassment that they know is going on.

[00:08:08] Christina Phillips: I mean, it’s great to know, but it’s kind of like how, how… Like, I’m a civilian. You’re a therapist.

[00:08:13] Christina Phillips: You’re an attorney. How would I know what the law… You know what I’m saying? Like, who’s supposed to- Mm-hmm … educate me on that?

[00:08:17] Josh Friedman: Sure. So I mean, I’ll put my hand up. You know, I, I could- I mean,

[00:08:20] Christina Phillips: bes- I mean, this is why we’re doing this podcast. Right. Right. Because we really wanna, you know, help people know and understand what their rights are.

[00:08:27] Christina Phillips: But, um, I, I think too often I, I just… Like, I wouldn’t have known that.

[00:08:31] Josh Friedman: Yeah. You know, and, and I think it, it’s a great question. A- a- and your company’s HR department or whoever’s in charge of these people issues-

[00:08:39] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm …

[00:08:40] Josh Friedman: often don’t volunteer that stuff. They almost don’t want the employees to know what their protections are.

[00:08:45] Josh Friedman: I think it’s a misconception that em- H- HR, human resources, is there to protect employees. They’re there to protect the company. So the best way to really, uh, educate yourself on what your options are, I would say just, you know, reach out to an employment lawyer. Most for our firm with the free consultations.

[00:08:58] Josh Friedman: And, uh, you know, [00:09:00] sometimes we can be, like, in the background helping clients navigate these issues. And if everything works out fine, great. You go about-

[00:09:06] Christina Phillips: Right.

[00:09:06] Josh Friedman: Right. Right … your life. Yeah. And if something goes wrong, we’re, we’re there to, to help e- uh, even more. Um, people are using Google and AI too, and with mixed results, um, with that.

[00:09:15] Josh Friedman: So I, I really-

[00:09:16] Christina Phillips: I know, ’cause sometimes, you know, that will tell you what you wanna hear and not, like- Right … necessarily what’s true. But- I’d

[00:09:20] Josh Friedman: probably wanna confirm that with a, an, an, an employment lawyer who does it. ‘Cause not only do I know the law, I know how these things play out, how it goes from the workplace and all of the gossip and dynamics.

[00:09:30] Josh Friedman: I know how that stuff plays out in court and, and that’s where your, your leverage, if you need it, to push back on your employer w- would come from. Someone who knows how what’s happening now plays out down the road if, if things don’t get resolved. So I think y- best practice is just consult with a, an employment lawyer.

[00:09:46] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, psychologically and emotionally she must be a wreck.

[00:09:50] Deirdre Arato : She, it, it’s, it’s that constant, you know, “Is it me? Did I do something wrong?” Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, if I say something, what’s gonna happen? Feel [00:10:00] like you’re walking on eggshells. Right. And then, uh, uh, she’s already under the microscope because of, of e- how everybody is, like, treating her differently.

[00:10:08] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:08] Deirdre Arato : Mm-hmm. So if she says anything, she’s, she’s fearing it’s gonna get worse.

[00:10:13] Christina Phillips: Right. Right.

[00:10:13] Deirdre Arato : And-

[00:10:14] I

[00:10:14] Christina Phillips: mean, it’s so tricky because-

[00:10:15] Deirdre Arato : To the point where sh- it’s easier for her, which she has said to me, “It’s easier for me to just start looking for another job.”

[00:10:21] Josh Friedman: And that’s what companies want. Companies would rather you quit or find a new job and, you know, that sweeps itself under the rug.

[00:10:28] Josh Friedman: They think people that quit finding jobs are less likely to call a lawyer or, like, explore their rights. Mm-hmm. Um, so you know, that’s what they want. You know, they, they would prefer that because there’s less, less exposure than if they were to fire you or, or, you know, or do that. Yeah.

[00:10:44] Christina Phillips: Right. Wow. So wow, there’s a lot going on.

[00:10:46] Christina Phillips: But, um, I mean, you know, it’s, it shouldn’t … The company really should help her not have to, like, move on and find a different job. Right. So, and- You would hope so … I hope it works out for her.

[00:10:56] Deirdre Arato : Yeah.

[00:10:56] Christina Phillips: So anyway, but thanks for your input. That’s very, very good [00:11:00] to know.

[00:11:00] Josh Friedman: If you’re dating a coworker, don’t wait for HR to find out.

[00:11:03] Josh Friedman: Tell them before it becomes an issue, and do it in writing. Keep it short. All you have to say is, “We wanna be transparent to avoid any conflicts of interest.” The message to your company: It’s not about confessing your love life. It’s about protecting your job

[00:11:16] Christina Phillips: So I have an interesting question, and, um, I think what it is, it’s like why do people focus on, you know, how things start, and they never in the workplace or in their job think about what happens if this ends?

[00:11:31] Christina Phillips: Because it, oftentimes it’s not gonna end well, so.

[00:11:34] Deirdre Arato : Right, because they’re leading with their emotions and not with their logic. That’s really what it comes down to.

[00:11:40] Christina Phillips: So they’re just, you know, they’re spending long hours together, they’re feeling the feelings, and all of a sudden they’re just like, “Yes, we’re in this.

[00:11:49] Christina Phillips: It’s, we’ll run off into the sunset.”

[00:11:51] Deirdre Arato : Mm.

[00:11:51] Christina Phillips: And then when that doesn’t happen- Yeah,

[00:11:52] Deirdre Arato : emotion. It’s the emotionally feel good, right? Yeah. So now you’re, you’re, you’re getting that rush of, of adrenaline and all those, you know, hormones that are [00:12:00] making you feel good.

[00:12:01] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. Exactly.

[00:12:01] Deirdre Arato : You, you feel seen. You feel validated.

[00:12:04] Deirdre Arato : It’s, it’s, it, y- Yeah … you have the best hopes for it to, to, you know, like you said- Yeah … ride off into the sunset. Exactly. But unfortunately, that’s the emotional mind taking over, and you, you, people need to pause and think of this logically. Yeah. Like, what happens if this ends badly?

[00:12:20] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, depending on what sort of the environment it is.

[00:12:23] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. If it’s like, you know, close quarters, corporate, management doesn’t like it. I mean, there are a lot of ways it can go bad.

[00:12:31] Josh Friedman: Sure. Sure, and if it’s with your boss or a supervisor or somebody that could control your rise or fall from the company, then that can be a lot of problems too. ‘Cause when, you know, if, when you break up, if, if the person that was, you know, in a, in a superior role, if they start pulling you off of projects, not introducing you to clients, not giving you the same upward mobility, you know, that, that could, uh, uh, become unlawful.

[00:12:55] Josh Friedman: You know, that could- Yeah … you know, was what they call retaliation. That could also be another form of [00:13:00] discrimination. Um, so unless you’re gonna ride off into the sunset, it’s, it’s, uh, could be a tricky position to be in. And then you’re questioning yourself, “Why am I not getting put on this project?” Mm. “Why am I not working with these puppets?”

[00:13:10] Josh Friedman: Mm-hmm. “Why is the promotion that I thought was on the table, uh, either gone or, or much further out in the distance than I thought before I dated this person?” So.

[00:13:18] Deirdre Arato : So- And I’ve also had people say that, um, in, when they are dating somebody at work, they feel more pressure to perform.

[00:13:25] Christina Phillips: I would imagine, because I feel like, you know what, now, you know, everybody’s sort of aware.

[00:13:29] Christina Phillips: You know what I mean? I don’t really think these things can be hidden very well- Right … you know, in most workplaces. And, um, so, you know, some people I think probably won’t, everybody won’t be happy for the couple.

[00:13:39] Deirdre Arato : Right. You know what I’m saying? Right. So that,

[00:13:41] Christina Phillips: that

[00:13:41] Deirdre Arato : could be

[00:13:41] Christina Phillips: why

[00:13:42] Deirdre Arato : they

[00:13:42] Christina Phillips: feel- Mm-hmm … so much pressure, but it sounds like there are a lot of ways this can end very, very badly.

[00:13:47] Deirdre Arato : Yeah, and so when people come into, into therapy, uh, s- you would hope that they come prior to the, you know-

[00:13:56] Christina Phillips: The start of the

[00:13:56] Deirdre Arato : relationship … the starting relationship, which I did have somebody come. [00:14:00] Really? Uh, yes. And, and they discussed, like, “Listen, I’m really crushing on this person, and we, you know, there’s flirting going on, and it’s, it’s, we’re both flirting, and we, we’re thinking that we might wanna go through with this relationship, and so-” Again, emotionally, of course you want that, but let’s take a step back- Mm-hmm

[00:14:19] Deirdre Arato : and think of this logically. What are going to be the consequences when the honeymoon phase ends? Mm.

[00:14:24] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:25] Deirdre Arato : You might wanna think about it, because it’s going- it might get very complicated.

[00:14:29] Christina Phillips: Yeah.

[00:14:29] Josh Friedman: Yeah, exactly what I, what I was saying before, it gets very complicated and, and the overlap, i- i- as if breaking up is ca- i- isn’t complicated enough, now your, your livelihood, your career, um, i- is at stake, and, and, and I think personally, like, w- what I like about this work is, is when somebody, uh, does leverage that, their power over somebody else to, like, remove them from the projects or clients, matters, whatever it is, uh, leveling that playing field and pushing back and saying that that’s, you know, that’s illegal and that’s not what you do after you’ve been…

[00:14:57] Josh Friedman: You know, after a breakup.

[00:14:59] Christina Phillips: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, not [00:15:00] to mention, you know, now if you’ve been in a relationship with somebody at work, now you break up, now the… We, two people get into different relationships. That sounds like it’s, like, a whole lot of complications. Yeah, it’s gonna be a hot mess. Yeah. Hot, like… I, I don’t know.

[00:15:12] Christina Phillips: I think maybe the best advice is just- Yeah … stay away from it. Don’t, don’t date people at work. I mean- Plenty of fish in the sea … I know you can feel out, but it just sounds like it can, it can go down the path of legal, um, at some point. You know, not necessarily, like you said, but, um, it does sound like it, it has the makings of, of-

[00:15:30] Josh Friedman: Of a, a legal dispute or a psychological trauma.

[00:15:32] Christina Phillips: Yeah. Mm. Exactly. So, well, I mean, there’s more to discover about this topic. When you keep

[00:15:39] Deirdre Arato : a relationship secret at work, it’s easy to tell yourself it’s romantic. It’s just between us. But secrecy is usually about safety, not privacy. You’re protecting yourself from judgment, not the relationship from scrutiny, and that constant vigilance, that’s not love.

[00:15:56] Deirdre Arato : It’s anxiety dressed up as loyalty.

[00:15:59] Christina Phillips: This [00:16:00] next story looks different on paper. Two coworkers, different departments, and no reporting relationship. They disclose the relationship responsibly, exactly how company policy requires. But one manager doesn’t like it, and suddenly discipline is on the table. The policy only restricts managers dating subordinates, nothing about coworkers.

[00:16:20] Christina Phillips: Now HR is stuck between enforcing the rules or enforcing someone’s opinion. I mean, it’s in the company policy that you could- you’re only a- not allowed to date a supervisor, but this person doesn’t like it. I mean, so I guess as, if I’m the coworker, what are my responsibilities?

[00:16:39] Josh Friedman: Sure, sure. So, uh, somewhat limited in this situation, I, I would say.

[00:16:44] Josh Friedman: I’d wanna know more about why the manager arbitrarily doesn’t like two people who are in a relationship. I mean, I would want to explore that more to, to, to figure out what’s going on there. But, you know, i- in New York in particular, you’re an at, at what’s called an at-will employee, [00:17:00] meaning the company can fire you for any reason or no reason.

[00:17:02] Christina Phillips: Oh, really?

[00:17:03] Josh Friedman: Yeah. So i- if, if the manager who doesn’t like the, these two people dating wants to fire both of them and is not, like, choosing the man over the woman or one over the other, uh, you know, that would sound, I mean, sh- shady, but not illegal. Wow. Shady, but not illegal.

[00:17:19] Deirdre Arato : Did you know that? I did not know that.

[00:17:21] Deirdre Arato : At, at all? So they could both lose their job?

[00:17:23] Josh Friedman: You’re an at-will employee. Like, y- you, they can f- literally fire you for no reason. They don’t like the color of my suit, they don’t like the color of your suit, they don’t like that you two are dating. Um, it, it, the, the legality issue would hinge on, let’s say that the, the woman is fired, not the man, the man’s fired, not the woman.

[00:17:38] Josh Friedman: That would be a distinction based on the person’s gender. Okay. I’m firing the woman because I don’t agree with this relationship, or I’m firing the man because I have a crush on the girl, and I… Whatever the manager’s intent is, that would be the distinction. But if it’s neutrally applied to both of them, th- yeah, you could, you could be fired for…

[00:17:54] Josh Friedman: Even if it doesn’t violate the policy. And, and if it does violate the policy, that’s, uh, even cleaner [00:18:00] grounds for- Mm … termination.

[00:18:02] Christina Phillips: Wow. So then if somebody- Is that just for the state of New Jersey?

[00:18:05] Deirdre Arato : New York. I mean New York. Is, is that just, like-

[00:18:08] Josh Friedman: Uh, well, y- New York is an at-will, at-will state. That, that’s where I’m barred.

[00:18:13] Deirdre Arato : Okay. So it’s- Mm-hmm … New York is, does, has that.

[00:18:15] Josh Friedman: Okay. Other states might, too, Jer, you know, but I, I’m not, uh, as proficient-

[00:18:19] Christina Phillips: Okay …

[00:18:19] Josh Friedman: on the-

[00:18:20] Deirdre Arato : Yeah. I, I meant to say New York. I-

[00:18:21] Josh Friedman: Yeah.

[00:18:22] Christina Phillips: Yeah. So but let’s just say, okay, two people in a relationship, and let’s just say there is A male supervisor who is really interested in the woman.

[00:18:33] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. And so he fires the man so he has an opportunity. I mean, is that illegal

[00:18:40] Josh Friedman: then? Yeah, that, that sounds very illegal for, for, for both the man and the woman. For, for the man who’s been fired, he would say, “I was fired because I’m a man.”

[00:18:47] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:48] Josh Friedman: You know, and she was not fired because she’s a woman and he’s attracted to her.

[00:18:51] Josh Friedman: Mm-hmm. So he would have a claim too. And then the, the woman, if, if you’re firing my partner, my boyfriend, someone I’m dating so that you have a better [00:19:00] opportunity to flirt with me, I’m like, you know, that, that would be a, a harassment claim as w- as well. Uh, and, and, uh, if, if, if someone’s in a leadership position behaving that way, I think that that would cause me to question the company’s hiring decisions.

[00:19:13] Josh Friedman: How does this person get into a leadership or management position? Because that what we’re talking about, managers are- Right. Yeah … like, uh… So if, if the manager did something like that, both of those people should, uh, contact an employment lawyer. Co- contact me right

[00:19:25] Christina Phillips: away. Okay. Good to know. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:26] Christina Phillips: Because, um, I mean, I… we can’t imagine all the scenarios out there, but it sounds like you have a lot of experience with this type of situation. And so…

[00:19:35] Josh Friedman: Definitely. And, and, uh, uh, I do have a lot of experience, and I’m happy to have that experience, but it’s, uh, unfortunate that these things go on from, from time to time.

[00:19:43] Josh Friedman: But I’m, I’m, I’m happy to help people, um, w- when they need it.

[00:19:47] Christina Phillips: Yeah.

[00:19:47] Josh Friedman: When they need it.

[00:19:48] Christina Phillips: And sort of navigate, you know, a relationship. But I mean, let’s hope that some of them work out, you know? Because you spend so much time at work, and, um, you know, people there have good intentions [00:20:00] most of the time. Yeah. So, you know, hopefully some relationships last, and, um, don’t get into any trouble.

[00:20:06] Christina Phillips: I

[00:20:06] Josh Friedman: guess that’s true. I, I only hear about it when things go- … go wrong.

[00:20:09] Christina Phillips: Right. And I’m sure you do too, right? It’s, you know. Yeah. But it sounds like the person who came to you before they engaged in a relationship-

[00:20:15] Deirdre Arato : Yeah, I mean, that’s great, you know, if you have the foresight. Mm-hmm. That’s wonderful. Mm-hmm. You know, ’cause you can try to, like, work your way through it.

[00:20:22] Deirdre Arato : But most of the time they’re coming when the relationship has ended, and things are really bad.

[00:20:28] Christina Phillips: Right. Right. Because it can really take a turn- Mm-hmm … for the worse, it sounds like. So…

[00:20:33] Deirdre Arato : If you like this conversation, hit subscribe. We’re dropping new episodes and shorts all the time.

[00:20:39] Christina Phillips: In a future episode, we’re gonna really dive into is it okay to date your boss?

[00:20:44] Christina Phillips: But for this scenario, it’s what if your boss asked you out on a date and you don’t wanna go? So you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t. What are you supposed to do?

[00:20:55] Josh Friedman: Sure. Sure. So, you know, my first thought is you should never do anything you don’t wanna do. You really don’t wanna [00:21:00] go out with your boss, and it does feel like a date, or it’s clear that it’s for that purpose.

[00:21:05] Josh Friedman: Don’t do anything you don’t wanna do. You know, I never recommend doing Or going against what your intuition, what your wants are- Mm-hmm … just to, like, you know, get ahead or please the boss- Mm-hmm … or get introduced to a client. I’ve, I’ve had clients in that situation where it was disguised as a date or wasn’t really sure, but there were gonna be client or promises of meeting clients or introducing you to, to business or, you know, ways to grow your business.

[00:21:28] Josh Friedman: Um, but if you, if you know it’s a date and it feels romantic and that was, like, the delivery of it, you know, y- you should still say no. I don’t ever recommend doing that, uh, or, or going if, if you really don’t want to. And if you’re concerned about, “Damned if I don’t,” um, you know, “If I don’t go out with him or, or my boss, um, am I gonna get, you know, am I gonna get this client account?”

[00:21:49] Josh Friedman: Mm-hmm. “Am I gonna have an opportunity for a promotion?” You know, that’s… I, I, I don’t think it’s worth it for somebody to just go out just for those things. I mean, you might have, whether you wanna explore your legal [00:22:00] rights or not, you can consult with a lawyer about what your options are in that situation, um, if they are, uh, y- you know, being spiteful if you say no and, and taking opportunities away from you.

[00:22:09] Deirdre Arato : I was going to add to that, that from, from clients that I have had, they feel obligated. Yeah. They don’t wanna go, but there’s… Inside they feel like, “I have to do this- Mm-hmm … because what if I don’t do it?”

[00:22:21] Christina Phillips: And you’re not gonna get, you know-

[00:22:22] Deirdre Arato : Right …

[00:22:22] Christina Phillips: promoted.

[00:22:22] Deirdre Arato : Right. So, and then there’s that confusion of working, dating, and it’s…

[00:22:28] Deirdre Arato : They do end up going on the date because of that.

[00:22:31] Josh Friedman: I’ve

[00:22:31] Christina Phillips: had- Well, I mean, then what happens? Okay, now one date turns into possibly two, or now there’s, you know- Yeah … alluding to it at the office, “Well, we went…” And then that can cause a whole host of other problems with your coworkers- Mm-hmm … who are like, “Well, you are dating the bo-” you know?

[00:22:44] Christina Phillips: And so you’re, I mean-

[00:22:46] Josh Friedman: Yeah. You know, I’ve, I’ve had clients, uh, with that exact same, you know, story that, you know, “I was never comfortable with it. It went along, it just got outta control.”

[00:22:55] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm. ”

[00:22:55] Josh Friedman: And then I tried to, you know, end it, you know, r- which revoked my consent to this [00:23:00] whole situation, and then things just got way worse.”

[00:23:01] Josh Friedman: Yeah. From there, what I, what I keep telling them, I was being pulled off of important matters, opportunities to be promoted or, you know, getting fired or, or pushed out of the company. Um, so y- you know, I… You’re damned if you do. You’re, you’re damned if you don’t- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … in those situations.

[00:23:15] Christina Phillips: And are you seeing this with, in your practice, female to male, male to female?

[00:23:21] Christina Phillips: I mean, it can go any way.

[00:23:22] Josh Friedman: I’ve had it all. I’ve, I’ve had all parts of the spectrum, all different dynamics. I think the traditional one is, is male and female, but no. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had it, you know, female boss on a, on a male employee, a male boss on a male employee. It’s, it’s the same underlying situation, complicated situation.

[00:23:38] Josh Friedman: If I say no, um, what is that gonna mean, you know, mean- Mm-hmm … for my ability to, to, to grow my career and e- you know, in- increase my, my livelihood?

[00:23:46] Christina Phillips: So it’s really the power dynamic.

[00:23:48] Josh Friedman: Yes.

[00:23:48] Christina Phillips: Somebody’s in charge. Yeah. Somebody’s a subordinate, and then that is when all the complications arises. Yeah. How do I

[00:23:54] Deirdre Arato : say no?

[00:23:54] Christina Phillips: That’s

[00:23:54] Deirdre Arato : what I hear

[00:23:55] Christina Phillips: frequently. Yeah. No, how do you say no?

[00:23:56] Deirdre Arato : How do I say no to my boss?

[00:23:59] Josh Friedman: And still [00:24:00] keep everything neutral.

[00:24:00] Deirdre Arato : Mm-hmm.

[00:24:01] Josh Friedman: And still have a- Mm … a neutral, clean, blank slate to go as far as you want in that company or in, in that career, yeah. It’s often skewed or- Yeah … jaded after that.

[00:24:10] Christina Phillips: Yeah, I mean, it’s very understandable then to say like, “Okay.

[00:24:13] Christina Phillips: Well, I’m gonna look for another job because I cannot put up- Mm-hmm … with this every single day because it is going to take such a toll on my mental health- Mm-hmm … and it’s just not worth it.” However, that doesn’t mean that’s the, the I- that’s not fair and that’s not right. Mm-hmm. And so legally speaking, if you’re asked out on a date, and just to sort of, you know, hone in on this, and you say no, and you can prove, do you have to prove retaliation?

[00:24:39] Christina Phillips: Like if you’re taken off of a project, or you’re not getting the promotion you were due, or something.

[00:24:45] Josh Friedman: Sure. So i- in New York, the, the legal standard is that it, it alters the terms and conditions of your employment. That’s what we were talking about when, when you’re, you’re, you’re talking about either discriminatory or, or retaliatory, uh, treatment.

[00:24:56] Josh Friedman: So yes, if you’re pulled off a project, and, and these are common examples I’ve [00:25:00] had with clients. If, if you’re pulled off of a project, or, you know, you’re not getting your same exposure to clients as your colleagues, uh, are, things like that, that is altering the terms and conditions. That’s altering your job.

[00:25:10] Josh Friedman: Okay. It’s altering your opportunity, um, to, to ad- advance your career and take it wherever you want. So, so yes, uh, that, that’s what that looks like.

[00:25:17] Christina Phillips: So the worker then has to prove it, or?

[00:25:20] Josh Friedman: Uh, yes. The, the, uh, burden of proof and if you were to litigate the situation would be on the, the employee to prove by a preponderance of evidence, basically more likely than not- Mm-hmm

[00:25:30] Josh Friedman: tip the scales a little bit. That the a- the boss’s actions after you either said no or you broke up with them, you know, p- wasn’t just a neutral re- you weren’t cut out for this role, that it was really motivated by, uh, uh, you know, spite or breaking up with them, and it’s a distinction being made to that in this situation.

[00:25:46] Josh Friedman: Women as opposed to everyone else on the team who doesn’t have that same, um, opaque lens, you know, being looked at that way.

[00:25:53] Christina Phillips: And in worst case scenario, you got fired. I mean, that’s pretty much a slam dunk, right? Unless your [00:26:00] job performance was horrible.

[00:26:01] Josh Friedman: Uh, even if you have performance that’s less than stellar, I mean, everybody has things that they could be better at, at their job.

[00:26:07] Josh Friedman: Mm-hmm. And, and what I’ve found in, in, in, in terms of proving it is that, you know, companies if they have to litigate this and, and try to undermine our burden of proof will, um, exaggerate minor little things that were may have just been coaching or feedback, and now for the purpose of litigation they’re m- you know, making it to be this disastrous, catastrophic mistake you made, that in real time wasn’t a, wasn’t a big deal at all.

[00:26:28] Josh Friedman: So if you are t- fired, you know, I talked about before altering the terms and con- Mm-hmm … there’s nothing more altering the terms and conditions- Yeah … of, than being fired.

[00:26:36] Christina Phillips: Right. Right.

[00:26:37] Josh Friedman: Yeah. We were talking about. Um, so, uh, i- in terms of a slam dunk, even if, you know, a defense attorney, I’ve dealt with them all, is going to- invent or exaggerate or take things out of context, uh, for the purpose of defending the company, make you look bad, impeach your credibility.

[00:26:52] Josh Friedman: Um, you know, I can certainly help you navigate that and, and, and plenty of the, you know, uh, of my colleagues can too.

[00:26:59] Christina Phillips: [00:27:00] Thank goodness. Thank goodness you’re out there. When it comes to situations like these, what’s the part that never makes it into the company newsletter? And from what I’ve heard today, I think the backstory of why a consensual relationship ended, um, because the gossip is not the real story.

[00:27:18] Josh Friedman: For me, what’s not going to make it in the company newsletter is you. Oh, gosh. Um, even if you have some sort of legal claim, if your boss is, you know, treating you differently, pulling you off projects, or firing you after a breakup, even if there is legal liability there, and, and there could be, you’re not gonna be on that project.

[00:27:36] Josh Friedman: You’re not gonna, you know, get introductions to those clients, and you’re gonna watch your colleagues run laps around you, unfortunately.

[00:27:42] Christina Phillips: Mm. Ooh, yeah.

[00:27:43] Deirdre Arato : What do you… Yeah, for me, what’s not going to make it in the newsletter is that the policies aren’t gonna protect the way people perceive you.

[00:27:49] Christina Phillips: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:50] Deirdre Arato : Right.

[00:27:50] Deirdre Arato : There’s just…

[00:27:52] Christina Phillips: It’s just human nature. That’s it. It is what it is. Yeah. So maybe, um, dating at work is…

[00:27:57] Deirdre Arato : You might

[00:27:58] Christina Phillips: want to,

[00:27:58] Deirdre Arato : you might want to think about [00:28:00] that long and hard before you get into a relationship.

[00:28:03] Christina Phillips: Next time on Not in the Newsletter, we’re diving into the grayest gray area of all. What if it’s not obviously harassment, but it still doesn’t feel right?

[00:28:11] Christina Phillips: We’ll explore the fine line between legal and healthy, and why so many women still second-guess their gut. Remember, your story is a spark that lights the way for someone else. See you next time